760. - Mark Anthony Green

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? It's a beautiful, beautiful... tuesday morning you like that white boy that la shit right here in los angeles it's uh it's 8 15 a.m we're doing the rare early pod on the in the same time zone which feels kind of it feels like a real job it's kind of nice where does the nice part happen i just like to i've my most people you included your brain probably works better right now than it does later in the day that is true but my problem is it's working a little too better Uh, to the point where it could be detrimental. I'm sorry. So you're saying, okay. So you're saying you're so quick witted and sharp that it could negatively affect. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm like, um, this is, let's say I'm a, an Olympic cyclist and I'm, I'm pedaling so fast that the wheels fall off and I, I go, I drive out of bounds. Uh, you know, I go down the wrong street on accident, stuff like that. Okay. Well, I mean, I, I, Amazing analogy. Does that make sense? Well, I can tell your brain isn't firing like you think it is based on that analogy, but I like where your head's at. Let's say I wake up and I watch a movie and I watch it so good that I forget it. You know, something like that. I watch it so good. You are a good watcher. That's something that you should put on your CV. As a cultural critique.

But yeah, it's good to be out of NY. That congestion pricing was really tough. Could you explain what congestion pricing is as a New Yorker? I mean, it's the greatest thing that's ever happened to me as a person who lives near a bridge. But it's basically a surcharge to enter certain parts of the city at certain times. And then the better you do in life, then you don't have to live so close to the bridges. Is that how New York works? No, it's more like... It's like... i guess people are upset about it i don't know that was just a joke sorry yeah i know i know you're making fun of where i live i don't understand i don't understand why people are upset because people try to talk to me about it like i was going to be upset and i'm like if you live in manhattan if you live downtown it's changed your life overnight immediately so so basically they they're like congestion pricing if you want to drive from outside of manhattan into manhattan we're going to tax your ass and then they did that and it's what like How much does it cost every time? I believe it's $8 or $9. Okay. Eight, nine bucks, the cost of a bottle of water in New York. And then a lot of people were upset because working class folks who have to drive into the city every day for work cannot afford spending, you know, we'll run it up to 20 bucks a day going in and out. Pause. And that's just a big chunk of money. So now they're considering reversing it. But when it was happening and currently still is happening, The amount of traffic specifically in your neighborhood has improved greatly. It's much more enjoyable for you. Anyone who lives in in the zone that is affected likes it for sure. I don't think that the I also think that like if you're a plumber, your company just has to pay for it. You know what I'm saying? Like you got to just like that's just and also the reversal, I believe, is it's all Trump. And I don't think it's going to work for some reason. There's like a reason it won't work or it'll be much harder than him tweeting about it. It seems antithetical to Trump's vibes. It does. To want to reverse this.

Me, that's exactly what I thought. There must be some other underlying political reason. I think the same thing. It feels very Trump-esque, actually. My greatest takeaway from this convo is that you and I both need to do more than read the headlines. All the info is probably in the story. I'm not going to read a story about congestion pricing. I could give a shit. Unless it goes away. I only care if it's working or not working. Just give me the highlights, brother. And I can feel that in my own life. Yeah, if it's working or not working, don't write a story about... How we're working on it. Yeah, like it's going to, I mean. Bitch, I'm working on everything. Doesn't mean shit. I've been working on a lot of stuff lately. Yeah, it's good to be in L.A. The weather is amazing. New York for two weeks straight was kind of killing me. It was a little cold. I mean, near the end when you were in town, it got better. Living in the city where you live in for up to two weeks at a time was taking a toll on Big CB. I get it. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, in this time of year. It's kind of, I think anyone would agree. I'm glad that you, you got to sneak out and come, come West where, isn't it so nice right now? Why did I leave? Yeah. Yesterday it was, I mean, yeah, yesterday when I got here, I was, it was, I was like, yeah, this is what it's all about. You know, this is what it's all about. Cali live account. I mean, just. It's just like it really is crazy to go from like wearing a parka every day to being like, OK, I guess I'm going to get a little hot. I should take this jacket off and just rock the T-shirt. You know, it's sitting outside. Ryland and I went to San Vicente Bungalos last night. We sat outside. There was a poker night going on in one of the rooms at SVB, which is. It was very well organized. It looked pro. They definitely brought everything in. But I just can't even imagine. I went in there. I went through there to go to the bathroom. I was like, it smells kind of musty in here. And I wonder if it's a different clientele or which members show up to gamble versus eat dinner. Was the poker tournament...

Like a Sanction Bungalows event? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't just like... Four Hollywood producers getting together on a Monday to lose some money. And they forgot to close the blinds so everyone having their birthday cake could see inside. So are people like vaping in there? And is it like a real zen vibe? It might have been a zen vibe. That's the beauty of zen. You can't really tell. Obviously, they're not going to let you vape. But just something about it was just like this is maybe it was the mix of like different Le Labo and Baccarat fragrances. Like it was giving like musty duty free. Kind of vibe. Oh. You know? Yeah, yeah, I know. Not locker room musty. Not locker room. I know what you mean. Like Uber driver musty. But it is Sunday. Mondays at SVB are Sunday Mondays where they bring you a, like, a few scoops of ice. Well, they do soft serve in the middle. And then you have all the accoutrement to build your own tiny sundae. at the table everything from crushed up oreos to m&ms to sprinkles to walnuts it's a pretty impressive spread when and when you say tiny how little is this sundae it's not it's not it's really not heaving it's really not i i mean it's not heaving it's not i mean it was okay was the spoon that you used to put the sprinkles and the and the peanuts and stuff on there was it a tinier than normal spoon Oh, wow, that's a good question because I think I used my hands because it was easier, and it was just me and Ryland. Actually, no, what I did, I picked up the little bowls and sprinkled. Got it. But I would assume the spoon is regular size because something like an M&M, because of its shape and circumference, it's going to roll around. You're going to need a little extra space. You can't have the caviar spoon. You know what I mean? Good save, Chris. Good save. I like that. Okay. I'm trying to think. I definitely put my hands in the Oreos for sure. I don't give a fuck. No, that's something that only my twisted mind would really.

Think up. That's a good question, though. I'm a cutlery guy. Okay, so you guys had Tiny Sundays. You watched some people cosplay Molly's Game in Room 112. Yes, exactly. About as cool as it gets. But I mentioned this in the group chat, and I wanted to kind of unpack this here today, but I was at the cursed Hollywood Equinox location. There was a guy in there. Regular Hollywood, not West Hollywood. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Which is, it's just gay, but different kind of gay. Okay, the West Hollywood is gay, I'll steal your girl. And regular Hollywood is, I'll steal your car keys and passport. Yes, exactly. Is that your needle? Because I'm taking it. Yeah, Mr. Steal Your Phone Charger from your locker at the Hollywood location. But there was, okay, anyway, so there's a guy in there. And I'm on the treadmill, and it's all one floor there, so you're kind of like looking out. You see everything. And there's just a ripped gay guy wearing a Calvin Klein sports bra with shorts. And he was getting it in. So he was diesel as fuck and getting it in and like kind of using the whole gym at once. Like it was like doing like walking lunges, like doing walking lunges. You know what I mean? So it's like it's big and performative and you have to notice him. And I was trying to figure it out because he he wasn't he wasn't he was 100 percent just a gay guy. Like he wasn't trans, but he had but he had the sports bra on. And I was like, is this just a fit? This is just a style thing then because he doesn't need – his pecs were nice and quite defined, but he didn't need support for them. You know what I mean? Okay. Well, I love 100% pure gay guy. Just that sentence alone. 100% pure gay. My thought is they want to go shirtless, but there are rules at the Equinox establishment. House rules. I see. You're right. Actually, that's –

found a way around is breaking yeah yeah a little loophole and that loophole goes in your left on your left titty and your right titty right in there pull him up i was i was just kind of i just was like wow this is a look i haven't really seen before and he was so fit and going so hard that the whole thing was hard it was hard to look away from was it he thought i mean i'm sure this is by design if especially if he's making the gym his bitch and doing Yeah, exactly. Using the entire gym, as you said, doing his lunges and his Superman crawls and whatever, hanging from the rafters. He wants everyone to see his cool, interesting look that makes him look different. Was it the standard black with white... That's right. Piping. Ribbing. Oh, yeah. Piping, whatever. And now it's just making me wonder, because he was... You know, he wasn't a big guy. He was very ripped, but he wasn't, like, wide. So I feel like, because if I tried to get a Calvin Klein sports bra, I don't know if it would work. Yeah, you wouldn't be able to pull from the Jenny from Blackpink collection. It might be a little more on the Lizzo side. You have bigger chests than most. I mean, I might have to hit, yeah, this might be Skims Nike only just because of the stretch capabilities, you know. But I always loved to come to L.A. So you were in awe of this person. I was staring to the point where he probably thought I was trying to meet him in the steam room. Because I was just so, I was literally like, this is insane. And, you know, he's listening to, like, New Lady Gaga on 100% in his beats. Just, like, living a life that I'm honestly jealous of. Like, the confidence, the body, the attitude. It's things I wish I could have. Well, you know, the grass is always greener. I'm sure this bossy bottom was looking at you and envious of some other things in your life. And that's just the way the barbell curls sometimes. he was jealous of could be my white privilege the rest of it i think he's good he's doing better than most he's doing better than most okay from one bossy bottom to another oh baby yeah actually i was thinking why do why do you work out protein influencer dudes like that feel the need to eat their meals only on

ugly wood cutting boards instead of a plate like how everyone else does. I think that they're thinking that there possibly could be microplastics in ceramics. You think so? Somehow. You know what I mean? I think it's like, well, I also think it just feels manly. you know yeah like it does i i think it's just if it just feels manly well it to me it feels it feels masculine but it doesn't feel manly it feels boyly it feels like something that you know an eight-year-old would would be interested in like i want to eat like what you see him the cutting board is like in the shape of what state they live in that's cool yeah i think it's really just yeah that's cool i think it's really just a um uh, aesthetic choice too. Like that. I think it like, this looks cool with my big knife and liver on it, you know? Um, all right. We have my six eggs. We have a guest say, I love, I love a six egg. We have a guest say, uh, friend of the show, Mark Anthony green. Uh, I know him from his, his long tenure at GQ. Um, but he has written and directed his first feature film called opus, uh, that comes out, I think next week. Um, and it's, it's stars for into the show. IO. and uh john malkovich and a few and a few other people some heavy hitters yeah yeah heavy hitters i watched it this morning at 6 a.m the things that we do for our good friends over at the a24 corporation let's give mag a jingle all right this episode of how long gone is brought to you by quince jason the temps are warming up it's getting hot out there summer always changes how i get dressed i need pieces that feel lighter more breathable And they're just easy, but, you know, still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. You know, they focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts.

Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone. It was brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you.

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you know what i mean like i i would be lying if i was like uh on my first junket like i answered the same question two million times it's like yes you answer the same question two million times but also this is the first time i've ever had to do this so if i were doing this for the 200th time for you know the 200th movie then i probably would be justified in being annoyed you've earned your stripes i'm just so grateful you've earned your stripes at that point yeah yeah i get to be grumpy at that point but like on this one i'm just i'm grateful people care so much about the film you do not get to be grumpy mag yeah exactly i i really do feel that i'm like bro just fucking do your do your job but this is fun like i i look at something like this like i actually listen to y'all and want to talk to y'all so thank you like i would talk to y'all without the movie yeah sure sure that's you know we appreciate that and mag we would talk to you without the movie as well it goes both ways it goes it goes both ways but also you coming from a background in media working with gq so you know what the other side of the junket looks like you know how the sausage is made so you have a different set of eyes on it then you know a mikey madison who's doing her shit for the first time and just like ah yeah it makes me a little more aware which is bad yeah i was gonna say right i was gonna say i think it's actually worse it is usually the sausage made analogy is referred to in a negative connotation more so than a positive you don't want to see yeah yeah no you're right you're you're you're totally spot on i just there are some people where i'm like oh man i really wish um i wish we worked together because i'm like oh you this is how i'd go about doing this interview you know i mean shit like that but hey just just hold on hold on one second so i this is how i would do it this is how i would but that's just the control freaking me yeah you know anyway what is up same old bro same old we're both in la it's beautiful here you know are you living here now are you in new york i'm in la

Did you move to LA because you have to to be a member of Hollywood? Or did you... Are we officially in the pot? Oh, yeah. We've been in the pot, bro. Oh, we're in the pot. Okay. Pot here. Yeah, then let me adjust that answer. Yeah, I moved. I needed... What was her name? What was her name? Yo, yo, yo. I needed a break from New York. I needed a break from New York and some sunshine and... Trees. Yeah, trees, brother. Trees, trees. Yeah, the trees in New York, I just needed a... Different kind of flora and fauna, I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally get it. I totally get it. But man, I love the New York trees. I miss the New York trees. Sure. Special kind of tree out there. Yeah. It's a special kind of tree. It's not palm. It's the major differentiator. They're mean, but they get me harder. I don't know what it is. Yeah, exactly. They'll fall on you and you won't see it coming. That's for sure. Okay, well, you said that was just a control freak in me. That being said, how many credits do you have on your film? Oh, wow. Great question. Let me see. Directed by, written by, produced by, songwriting credit. So just four? What Kid Cudi song are you on? What the fuck are you talking about? Kid Cudi song. No, I'm joking with that. You said songwriting credit. Yeah, songwriting credit. To let you know, I watched the film at 6 a.m. this morning because I just got home from New York last night and it was the only time I had a chance to watch it. So some of the songs that appear in the film that Malkovich is performing or singing or playing on a stereo, you did some writing. You were in the lab. Those songs, yeah, I was with those guys. dream and niall man like that was one of the most fun parts of it was one of the most stressful but it's one of the most fun parts of the process just because but the venn diagram of my interests now rogers produced by the dream produced by now rogers john malkovich singing it a horror film like

when all of that kind of came together when we were recording those songs, that felt deeply personal. Like there was a moment I had to kind of like pinch myself when we were all in the studio together. Yeah. Yeah. I bet, I bet there was, it was trippy. It was like a, just a very, very trippy experience. And John is so fearless, man. And just never, he just approached it like a, like an athlete. Like he just was so fearless. And. met that challenge head on and he had to go in there and sing those songs and um and that's not what he does but i fucking love them one of them is out now the other two come out the day of the film march 14 well it's interesting because like the fact that you got malkovich in the film is like such a crazy thing it's like we can't even talk about it because it's such a, you know, he's, you know, arguably the best living actor around right now. Yeah. Him and Spacey at the top is just us, but Jesus Christ. It's more so it's like, bro, how did you get the dream? Whose dick did you suck to get the dream? And now Rogers in the stew with you. I just asked very nicely. Okay. Let me ask you this. I didn't have to do all that. I didn't do all that. I just asked. Yeah, I just asked nicely. Before we start talking about Dick's Day, what did you think of the film? What did I think of the film just in general, overall? Yeah. Well, I liked it a lot because it covered some of my Venn diagrams coming together. Life in the Desert, Indigo Denim. But most importantly, me being a cultural critic myself and seeing how I interact with the people that I criticize, people usually not on that level of the character that Malkovich plays, but I think it's really interesting to see the revenge, I don't want to give stuff away, but the people that are being criticized getting some sort of revenge in a world where they feel like their hands are tied.

They can't really do anything. It's lose, lose. The critics are going to, you know, they're always in the position of power because they're punching up. So it was cool to see that, but it was not that cool to see as somebody who is a critic. I was like, oh, shit, like this could something bad could happen to me. You know what I mean? Because I like shows like you thought it was deep. It gets way deeper, you know? Yeah. On some Illuminati shit. That's interesting. The reason I asked, well, what did you think, Chris? I didn't see it. You haven't seen it yet. Okay. Let me tell you something, Mag. Let me tell you something about – Oh, yeah. We actually have a bone to pick with A24 about this. First of all, I don't traditionally fuck with movies. I fuck with you. I will watch the movie. Thank you. Thank you. A24 offered us a 24-hour stream window. Yeah. And I just couldn't make it – I was traveling. I just couldn't make it work. I'm like, can't you just – what am I going to do? I'm going to leak a movie from a guy I know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was on an airplane ride yesterday, five hours. That would have been a great place for me to watch the film, but I had to watch it at 6 a.m. this morning because of my A24 mandated window. A24 got us in handcuffs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, yeah. I mean, how dare they keep the movie safe? Exactly. Thank you. But I mean, we've received hundreds of streamers in our career. I'm popping shit. they don't know that we're they don't know that we know each other no yeah they don't and and i feel like i feel like that it's uh it is it's it's fine i just find all of that stuff i feel like The era of getting a DVD in the mail was actually so much better and easier. It was so sick. Now I have to open a window, try to bounce it to the TV. It's harder now, which is crazy. Chris doesn't know how to use HDMI cables and stuff, but it was cool. Hell no, bro. After seeing the film, it was cool being a part of that exchange with A24's people. It made me feel like I was in that film. I was lucky enough to be plucked.

from obscurity and brought into this world where there are a lot of restrictions involved i the reason i asked because of the criticism you know it's funny like there has been an interesting conversation with critics in this movie some critics really disliked it for a myriad of reasons and then people like kind of like push back on those critics that disliked it So it's an A24 film. Got it. But what I don't want to happen personally, what I don't want to happen is like I am pro journalism and I'm pro criticism. Number one, as a human. Number two, I'm pro journalism, pro criticism as an artist. I made a film that I love, that I believe in every message, every pixel of every frame of this fucking movie. I'm so proud of this movie. I spent six years of my life making this movie. And I made this so that there would be a dialogue. I made this so that the three of us could get on here and to have a conversation about it, whether you responded to it or not, whether you loved it or not. And I appreciate people sticking up for both me sticking up for the film. But I don't want I don't want it to sound or taste like fuck the critics or fuck media, because I don't believe that. I also think. It's just a dangerous idea. You know, there is a bit of a misconception on like the intentionality and what I was trying to say to me. The the journalism in the film and Chris doesn't love me enough to watch it, but the journalism in the film isn't. I love you so much, man. I know. I know. I love you, brother. But it's like it's like the basketball in White Man Can't Jump. That is not a movie about basketball. Sure. But the basketball has an authenticity and a regionality of outdoor L.A. pickup games. And they deliver on that. And there is an authenticity of the journalism because that is a life that I live, that I started at 19 at GQ for 13 years as a full time job.

Like there's an authenticity to it that I wanted to fully deliver on. But the thing that the film interrogates to me and my intention, but also just when I step out of it and I watch it, it's a much bigger, more universal issue. So I think it's cool when I get to talk to thoughtful critics about the film. So I'm excited about that aspect of it. Well, what is that universal theme exactly that you're trying to interrogate? Yeah, I think that it's about tribalism and how, in my opinion, it's a global pandemic and how there are these individuals that we love. And, you know, my guy is bigger than your guy. And if Chris likes that guy and, you know, it's the same guy as my guy, then Chris can do no wrong. But if Chris dislikes that guy, then he can do no right. Like how Chris is still riding for Drake, for example. OVO Chris is never putting his sword down. Fuck Kendrick Lamar. OVO Chris is crazy. That's crazy, brother. OVO Chris is crazy. Chris, where are you from? I'm from Atlanta. That's right. I'm from Atlanta. For some reason, I was like, oh, well, maybe he's from Toronto or something. I have deep connections to the Toronto community. I do feel a kinship with my Canadian people. Okay. It's, it's more just like, but that is a good example, Jason. That is a good example. But I think that the, that sort of, I mean, that makes, makes me think of like the Stan culture thing. Whereas like, if you don't like. Sabrina Carpenter, Taylor Swift, or Selena Gomez, we're going to dox you, and your life might be in danger, and your children shouldn't walk to school alone. Yeah, 100%. Is there a difference between stan culture and tribalism? at this point in our lives? That's the question. The great thing about being an artist is I don't have the answers. I don't posture like I have the answers. I don't pretend to have the answers. It's great for you. I need some answers, brother. Come on. But it's up to you. Again, that is why you are a critic. Well, I think, Jason, I think it's also just the terminology is only different because of what it's referring to, I think, to some extent. I think the word Stan specifically.

refers to like music almost basically and i think that tribalism feels a little more all-encompassing as a term but i don't see much of a difference either in a lot of ways 100 you know i really hope people go see this film please go see this film march 14 this is a bit of a spoiler but you know it's a horror movie you could assume someone dies in this movie right and one conversation that i've thought has been really interesting is like Why does the person who decides to kill this person, why do they kill the person? Or why do they think killing is the way? And I look at Luigi as an interesting example, right? So like whether you think Luigi is a hero, not a hero, should be free, shouldn't be free, good guy, bad guy, whatever. I think we all can agree that one. He's hot. We all can agree he's hot. Full stop. We can all agree I'm going to suck it from the back on that kanji. That's what I call conjugal visit. Sorry, go ahead, man. Knock my thing over. Also, shout out to conjugal visits straight up. You know what I mean? I've never done one, but tell me what it's like. We were talking about this the other day. Do you know how they work? After a certain point, you're granted them, or do you have to be married? This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world... writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools.

So those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early, and we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Hi Talk House Network listeners, it's your old friend Nels Klein from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, LaGrange, Georgia, Charleston. South Carolina, Virginia Beach, Virginia, Wheeling, West Virginia, and Columbus, Ohio. Plus, there are even more dates, some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here. So please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates. We'll see you on the road this summer. What level of relationship do you have to have with the prisoner? in order to be able to be locked in a room with them for 20 minutes so you can get your little nut on? I just think it's whack that you are so pejorative about their nut. And you're saying, like, their little nut on. I guess a conjugal visit is a huge nut. You're right. Yeah, that's maybe the biggest. And I applaud you for pushing back on me. I stand corrected 1,000%. This is gross. That is a nut that you're going to have to eat off of that nut for months. Okay.

Okay, well, I agree with you that, you know, the beautiful part about it is you create a piece of art, and then we get discussing afterwards, you know, a Seinfeld episode. We just saw a movie. We're going to walk home, get an ice cream, get a cup of coffee. We're going to talk about what we all felt about the movie, what we saw, and we can project our own thoughts and opinions onto that artwork. Are you the kind of person who likes a film where it's up to the viewer to decide what really happens at the end, or are you like... more of a completist like chris it's just ovo chris i think that the ending at least my intention with opus uh was to have an ending that felt like a commencement right like we call a graduation from school a commencement which means the beginning of something but it's deeply satisfying and i think an ending should be satisfying you you gave me your money You gave me your time, you know, hour and 43 minutes. And so I want you to leave satisfied. But I think in order for there to be a conversation after, there has to be some kind of unsettling, unrest, unsolvedness in order for you to continue to engage with it well after, you know, the credits. That was my approach. But I think every story is different. Some stories require a level of finality. you know like a biopic for example right like you make ray charles movie and you wanted to feel exhaustive of his life and these are the important moments whatever whatever and he did this he lives here he passed away on this day whatever whatever but like you know that story that arc it should come to a close and opus was just kind of a different creative assignment yeah I agree. It did end, but it also commenced on my ass, and it really got me to thinking. But, you know, in the way that the best, you know, quote-unquote horror or thriller movies do, it leaves you thinking about the future in not necessarily a good way. It was upsetting to me. I'm going to be okay because I'm a big boy, but still, you know, it kind of...

It paints the picture of you can, you know, defeat the dragon at the end, but you never you never really win the war. You know what I mean? Yeah. Unless some people unless everybody has a different thing in it. And so I don't want to be like, don't be nihilistic if you're a nihilistic person. Don't be pessimistic if you're a pessimistic person. Don't be optimistic if you're optimistic person. Like, again, I I made this thing for you to experience it. And then whatever you feel at the end is valid. I don't look at it quite that way. You know, like personally, we would have to like spoil the ending to have this conversation. True. But I do think that the caution, like there's value in the nihilism, there's value in like the caution of it, which I think is cool. On that same subject. And let me know if this is a spoiler, but I don't think it is. There's a little cutaway scene to a plaque that has a quote on it from Leonardo da Vinci. It says, never finished, only abandoned. Did you finish this film? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. Because I saw it. It's done? Yeah. I don't mean in the literal sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's a sick question. The full quote, we don't put this part in it just because it felt cheesy. Art is never finished, only abandoned. They charge by the letter, and it is a 24 film at the end of the day. That doesn't get cheap. Yeah, that's not cheap. For me, and I think literally every filmmaker will say the exact same thing, but if I could go back and change a bunch of stuff to, you know, we shot this on this day, but I ended up cutting it, and if I had more time that day, I would have done this. I would make this look this way. I would, you know, this should be. three shades of blue bluer like yeah those things keep me up at night they will haunt me for the rest of my days but that doesn't mean it's not finished it meant that those things were never supposed to happen damn okay motherfucker you're on a you're on a different plane i like that well i you know what it's it's weird what has happened to me in the last couple weeks because of the interviews because

This thing that was just mine is now no longer mine. The cocktail is like one part numbness and then like one part like I am seeing the full playing field. Sounds like cocaine to me. Well, I wouldn't know, bro. I know someone who would. Hey, what the fuck? What the hell? No, no, no. Jason, bleep that out. I never thought of that. That's good, man. Chris White, you don't like that? Hell no, it makes me sound like a... Street baller or something. I don't like that. It's not spelled with a Y. It's not W-H-Y-T-E. It makes me sound like an and one athlete, and I don't like it. To me, it makes you sound like a character in a Rick Ross song. That is the highest compliment of all time. Mark, my gift, much actually similar to you, my gift is my name. That's all I have. It's very easy to remember. It rolls off the tongue. Any deviation from that is scary. You also have a really good voice. Hey, thanks, Mark. Thank you. Thank you. I'm always fascinated when people I know make a movie because it seems like an insurmountable kind of mountain. to climb. Making albums makes a lot of sense to me. I know exactly how that works. I've been around it my whole life. It's very simple. Even writing a book, I'm like, I get how this works. Making a movie, there's so many factors and it seems to take so long. I don't know if I have that kind of wherewithal or patience. I just don't know. It's very impressive to me to get something over the line. Thank you. Yeah, but then you hope it's good. But also, I don't come from money. you know a lot of and you don't make money making movies i've heard unless you have heard that i've heard a big hit yeah but and i don't say that in a complaining way i think it's corny super corny when somebody complains about a job like the job that i have which i think is the best job in the world being a filmmaker in an interview because i've been a kid who had a terrible job no money in my pocket would kill for that job

And then you're listening to somebody complain like an asshole about the fact that they only made a couple hundred grand when a couple hundred grand at the time to me was like unfathomable amount of money. Well, when you were a kid admiring those filmmakers, that was in a time where print media, the music industry, the film and television industry meant that you were printing money. And nowadays it's sort of, you know. There's the 5% at the top are making money and everyone else is making jack shit. So I'm not sure that you, you, you're able to be sad about that. I don't think that you're able to complain about it in front of, in front of people that have it worse. Yeah, I agree. No, I agree. I mean, this, this is what bothers me. It's like, it's, it's just, again, part of it, like you guys know what it's like on both sides, right? You've been interviewed and you've been the interviewer. And I'm saying I am cognizant enough. i i've been a director for almost 10 years i made my short film eight years and some change ago i have been poor for 36 years so i've been i i live that way long so you're like i got that part i kind of got that yeah like i've been broke let me not say poor i've been broke for 36 years so like to me the idea of like complaining about it i also i worked with a studio that was enormously supportive like the money we had was the money we had it wasn't a ton of money we shot this movie in 19 days but when i picked up the phone they would always hear me out there was always a um a like commitment to my vision for this film and yeah so anyway when the money conversation comes up i don't know it just feels weird to complain in this form i know i i agree with you i mean this is what people i mean this is how i feel about i mean musicians all they do is complain and i'm like they're this is most people's dream you know what i mean it's like i i don't think but i think you recognize this is something i harp on all the time i think you recognize that you're not owed this career like this isn't something that you are owed because you tried that's not how it works could go make money

Yeah. If I wanted to go make money. Yeah, for sure. I am a cisgender, able bodied, very, very handsome man. I live in America. I graduated from a great college. Did you go to Morehouse? Yeah, exactly. Yes. Oh, yeah. You're good. You can get a job anywhere. I'm saying I could go make money if I wanted to. So the other the it's it feels like. fake to complain about it. Now, I say that to say when the DGA comes to negotiate, the WGA, all of that stuff is very real. That is the time to have these conversations amongst friends and peers. That is the time to have those conversations. Not right here. But not in an interview where what I want to do if you're a young person and you want to make movies, I want you to make your movie. I want you to watch Opus or to hear this conversation and to be like, I'm inspired by that. That person seemed both gracious and like they are fulfilled because I am. And I want to go and do that, not to discourage you. Yeah, I know. I agree. That's the more I mean, that's the more responsible and just a cooler thing to do, because it's like you were once that kid. You know what I'm saying? It's that simple. Yeah, I feel like I'm still that kid. You know what I mean? I just have made my move. I just I also want to understand how. someone like you in this position gets paid because it's like obviously you have several jobs from what i've been told from my hollywood insiders is that you know the more credits you have in the when they're rolling that you're getting paid for each of those things is that is that correct to some extent i think more successful the credits i mean look jordan peele's made three movies and jordan peele should be one of I think he is, but he should be one of the highest paid filmmakers on the planet, you know. But then there are some people who have made 50 movies and, you know, it's a business. So for me, I have learned how valuable money is to me throughout this process, which is not really. Oh, good for good for you.

I can't wait till I get to that point. Well, he's an actual artist, Chris. If you're a real artist who cares about their work, you're not doing it for the money. I would love money. I think money is sick, and y'all know how much I love clothes and dumb shit, and I love furniture, which is the worst. You have expensive luxury taste. Yeah, the taste that I have, you know, you can have... You can have good taste and it not be expensive, but for some reason, the taste that I have, a lot of it is expensive. Sure, sure, sure, sure. So for what, you know what I mean? That's what Pinterest is for, brother. A hundred percent, right? I'm just going to put this board together and keep my MX in my wallet. I don't need to go on first dibs. I'm all set. I'm all set. I got my board. Hold on. I think that the cleaner lady is coming. No, that's okay. Do your thing. Also, I have as much time as y'all want, so don't. Okay. Don't fret at all. I'm so stoked to be talking with y'all. Same. Yeah, so I've made so many decisions. Also, directors should be paid more. Every actor should be paid more. Every actor. Let's pump the brakes on that. Yeah, a lot of them. I think every actor should be paid more. I don't know that everybody should be rich, but I do think that people are underpaid to me. But film is my favorite thing in the world. So you contribute to my – you are a valuable imperative asset of it. So then you should pay him more. I paid as much as I could. I did everything I could to hit that SAG minimum. I did everything I could. Bro, I wish. Bro, I had to work hard to get you up to scale. Yeah, exactly. Oh, scale. Okay, you mentioned – just really quick, you mentioned earlier that you are a CIS. male yes um you are straight but would you hit lenny kravitz for the story i wouldn't hit lenny for the story no okay but but i think he's the most beautiful man of all time okay yeah yeah yeah lenny's 60 it looks 30 he's so cool and effortlessly cool yeah i also don't even like he's like post sex to me

it's bigger than sex when it comes to yeah yeah yeah you know i kind of it's more of an aura than it is anything else it feels like there's something you don't even need to fuck yeah emanating from him that's different than anyone else i have a theory that jason asked that question every interview and this is the first time it's been applicable no He asks, would you fuck Lenny Kravitz every time y'all talk to somebody? We've talked about Lenny Kravitz a lot because there's the video of him working out in the Equinox fully clothed in jeans. That's right in our wheelhouse of things to talk about. You're half correct, Mark. I ask that question to every guest on our podcast who has Lenny Kravitz cameo appearance in their film. Every single one. So you are correct there. I also find that when your first time filmmaker and you're asking people to be in the movie obviously they have to like it but the people that you have obviously are seeing a lot of scripts and they're reading a lot of stuff and they're in demand do you make a personal plea at a certain point like once it's gone through the agents and the managers and the whole thing or does it start with the personal plea it kind of starts with the personal plea yeah like one of my favorite was um murray bartlett was supposed to go visit his mom in australia for our listeners at home he's in the film he was on white lotus season one where you get to see his dick yes yeah great australian actor you you also get to see yeah he's an incredible performer he's one of the best actors on the planet um of course marie yeah but so he's supposed to go see his mom but he read the script and he and he he liked the script and so we were gonna meet And so I had to talk him into doing this movie. So you and Murray are at Sunset Tower having breakfast and you're like, it's all fun and games. Then it gets to a point where you're like, bro, you got to do this. Like, what can we do to make it happen? Or did you do it in nine holes or did you have to play the whole 18 to get the deal done? Man, yeah. If it was like me on a golf course, I would lose. I'd have nobody in this fucking movie. I was already in New Mexico. Okay.

We were already in pre-production when we were casting, partially because the strikes. kind of really messed our schedule up and i couldn't meet with actors during the strike oh yes couldn't meet officially but you're not even allowed to go get a little enchilada no if we see if we see him and io at maru somebody's calling the cops got it the film and television police yeah yeah io was my homie so we would hang out that's what i said so was she was io first because you guys obviously had a relationship to sign on yeah and once you have won the the dominoes start to fall is historically yeah but it was it was a different it was a different time in her career io has always been that talented but it wasn't until season one of the bear that people really started to take notice see see her talent and i had never really seen her you know i told this story the other day but like i saw i had screeners of that season and i mailed them to our exec at 8 24 just like which you're not supposed to do but holy shit this is ariel like look at how great this actress is so you know i was thinking about her before the bear but i was so talented and so cool and so effortlessly incredible at her craft i just think everybody would put her in anything so so you're saying you discovered her but she would have been found either way yeah you can't take the credit i didn't discover that woman at all but i'm interested to be like who what was the first like maybe big mouth yeah yeah what was the first thing that she that she was on and you're like man this she's super sick because the stand-up was good her podcast was good she she's been she's been beasting in the la improv underground for years i do think that there's a world though where hollywood kind of only pays attention when it's like in hollywood obviously there's people trolling trolling the the stand-up you know all that shit but i think once they see you in the medium they understand then it becomes easier to put you in other places oh 100 yeah they need they it's helpful to them

They need the content. You can be funny on TikTok, but it might not work on TV. We need to see you up there to get over the hump. There was a scene in the film that I thought you did a good job of capturing how we recognize that something has entered the zeitgeist. There's a scene where you're looking over. uh kind of like a bird's eye view like when you're sitting in the in on an airplane and you stand up and you see all the screens in delta one and they're all watching the same movie and you're like oh something's going on here and i really want your movie to play on delta and for you to take a picture of that exact scene from delta one be a nice little uh moment for me yeah nice little moment for you i also i'm sure chris is the same because he's from the a but like i only fly delta Oh, come on, bro. Yeah, Jason, too. If you choose to be like an American or United person, I have questions. You're talking to Million Miler right now, Mag. Yeah, yeah. Are you a Million Miler or are you in my club? I am. Well, I don't know about all your clubs. Hell yeah, gang. Y'all are probably in some other clubs on that. You know what I mean? I want to be very clear, guys. You know what I mean? Not to clip that just in case. But yeah, I'm a million miler. We don't do clips, bro. Yeah. Well, other people. Congratulations. Yeah. Yeah. Congratulations to y'all as well. I mean, being a million miler is to me, it's the same as kind of taking six years to make a movie. I don't really see a lot of differences. Do you feel like you became a million miler and now you're like, I am enough. Honestly, it filled my cup more than it should have. Yeah. No, but the problem is, I was just telling this story a couple episodes ago. My wife was on a... We flew to New York last week. Y'all are married? Yeah. I was fucking with you. Are you married? No, no, no. Not married. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't try to play our game. Don't play our game on me. Hold up. Y'all are married? But she was sitting in Delta One.

Somebody came over and thanked the person next to her for being in the 2 million miler club. Oh, wow. And then the person after that got thanked for being in the [redacted address] they say, like, you know, are billionaires ever happy? Does Elon Musk or Bezos ever feel like they have enough money? Yeah. And the answer is unfortunately no. My man, Dan Riley, who works at GQ, he would always say there's always another room. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. Delta one. That's cute. Delta two. What up now, bitch? Yeah. Or like Delta 360. Delta 360. Delta 360 actually. I mean, we talk about Delta 360 because of its mythic reputation because no one knows what the requirements are. That's because they're not. I don't think. Again, I love Delta. Do you have any insights onto this movie? I have a little bit. I think that it's not like a hard set rule. Exactly. It's just like if they're feeling your vibe and the numbers are looking good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like pornography, you know when you see it, you're 360 or not. But the interesting part is Delta 360 is the highest level that we know of. Yeah. And I feel like there's a lot of similarities with your film. that's tight this is the hot this this is the level that we know of yeah and then oh guess what no this is that's just the surface yeah i don't know that i actually understand the the correlation there i can bleep it out or i won't have to include it but like at the very end when she's doing the oh oh yeah yeah yeah to me like i always think of this as a visual where like somebody has built the world's tallest building and everyone's like damn you have the tallest building ever that's so cool You reach the top, and then there's another building that's one foot tall, but it's the size of a continent. Yeah. And, like, that's, like, the real kind of beast that lives underneath us. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's sick. So I want to reach the level of delta status where it's some shit that y'all don't even know about. Yeah. I also want to reach that. I don't think that's a realistic goal. But 360, I feel like 360, you're just sitting down one day, and they come tap you on the shoulder and change your life.

I feel like it's that simple. Will Welch is Delta 360. Oh, I'm going to interrogate his ass. Damn, I didn't know. I outed my big brother, but he's Delta 360. What are we doing talking to you? No offense. Yeah, I know. Like, literally. And we were on a flight once, and... The treatment that he got on the flight, I was like, wow, this is beautiful. This is different than what you were seeing. It goes beyond. Give him a little caviar bump on his hand when he walks in. Mr. Welch, please, please, please sit down. Stewardess comes over, sit on his lap. Calling anything a bump makes me laugh every time. It's one of the most foolproof jokes in my heart. Yeah, I'm kind of with you. Even though I hate caviar, I'm with you. You like other bumps, though, Chris. white yeah yeah thank you yeah i like you both said chris was the same exact time god no i definitely i definitely like that but yeah i i mark recently um they were talking about the new avatar film yeah about how they're gonna have a little sign at the beginning of the film saying no ai was used in creating this film yep what are your thoughts on that did you use ai on your films we didn't use any ai my instinct is I think this stuff needs to be regulated, all of the boring stuff. But I think it's deeply disturbing. I want to be on the counterintuitive, this is progressive, we can make this work for us side. And I remain open to that, right? And I don't want to be somebody that shits on a filmmaker or a decision because it's different than the decision that I would make. But there's no AI in Opus. And to me, the crafting the movie, making the movie, that is the prize. So every day in the edit, that to me felt like a real joy. So you're saying cutting those corners would take away from the experience? Yeah. The journey is the destination. Yeah, you work a job for money and then you give money back to the job.

You're like, the reason I'm here is to do this because this makes me feel great and I feel alive and it makes me happy. And I get to put myself into this film and people like Jason, but not Chris, but Jason will watch the movie and they'll be like. oh man you know and they know a little bit more about me a little bit more about how i see the world but it's me on the screen for better and for worse you like it you love it you hate it whatever but like that is me on that screen and the idea of like cutting a corner so that something is like i guess more accurate or cutting a corner so that it looks more polished or whatever i don't know that that just doesn't that's not my instinct right now I wonder if we'll look at AI the way that I'm only 36, but like the way that they looked at CGI 20 years ago. Yeah. In 20 years. Right. And maybe that's the case. And I'll listen to this podcast, which will be, you know, in the Library of Congress because you guys are so great. That's right. That's right. And and we'll listen to it. And it's like, wow, he didn't know anything about anything. But what a while. thing i mean i'm anti all this shit too and i i know that it's going to catch up with me eventually and that's just kind of what it is because i like things to stay the way they are which is not possible yeah and i i think we shouldn't fight it like me and you people like me and you should not fight it because the future is always going to win but like for my process i i didn't see any world in on this film yeah or ai Were you guys in – you guys were in Albuquerque? In Santa Fe. Oh, you were in Santa Fe. Okay. For some reason, I thought it was in Albuquerque. That's a fun place. Do they give a tax break or you just like it? Oh, yeah. But they have like really – people always – the thing that I get frustrated on is people are always like, oh, you shot there for the tax break.

A lot of places have tax breaks. Yeah, Santa Fe is the best case scenario. But also your film is almost completely set in the desert. Well, yeah. New Mexico is a desert. We could have done it, you know, make the creative choice. We could have done it wherever. Yeah, I guess that being said, where did you want it to actually take place? Santa Fe. That was my dream location. But the thing I was going to say is what is the true deciding factor. with the tax break is the crews i see like who's available in that and and who's good who's talented right like there are places with great incentives but then you get there and you have to fly in so much of your crew well that's what i was gonna ask so you're saying you go to santa fe it's perfect for what you're doing they give the tax break but the locals are good and it in that also yes and they probably have a good attitude on our our stoked to work versus some of these uh burbank road dogs you know what i mean who are a little more grizzled and just kind of i i i disagree no shade to burbank i was about to say i think that the burbank road dogs love to work i i and again nobody does they're gonna be talking all through the motherfucker though nobody does nobody does these jobs because they don't love them they're too difficult you're away from your family too much You don't get paid nearly enough. You know, it's 14 hour days, 16 hour days, and it's hard work. And I know that I've only made one film and so one feature. And so that does sound optimistic, like, you know, rookie who had a great experience. But there wasn't a single person on my crew that wasn't a filmmaker and loved films and wanted to make a great film. It's all people who want to be a part of the magic. They want to do it, yeah. So I'm bummed. I'm trying to find a way to shoot something in L.A., both creatively and logistically. Is it harder to shoot something in L.A. than New York? Yes. Really? Wow, that's crazy. Have you considered AI? It's just money-wise.

Yeah, it gets expensive. Also... A lot of loopholes, a lot of red tape, a lot of paperwork, a lot of bullshit. Yeah, and then it gets expensive and it gets competitive. Sure. But now it's less competitive because there's less stuff being shot there. But there was a point in time where, you know, like any other enterprise, it was the competition that kind of... My second AD, he's on severance right now. You're not going to get him for six months type shit. And everyone's fighting over the... Yeah, or like... A thing that happened to us is a lot of the big shows, they came back in the middle of our pre-production, and they're just going to pay you a lot more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So those people just disappear. Shout out to our FX Hulu family. We love you guys. Yeah. Well, going back to the film, without giving it away, sort of like a big musical superstar who may or may not be a cult leader. We could say that, right? Yeah. Out of all the current superstars in music, who has the highest likelihood of being an actual cult leader? I want to answer this question because it's boring not to answer. So give me a second. Tate McRae. Next question. Who would you say? Tate McRae. I hate that I don't know who that is. You don't know who Tate McRae is? I'm so sorry. Who is Tate McRae? It's okay. You're too straight and not white enough to know who that is. Don't feel bad. I figured you kept up with white women like that, but I guess you don't. That's crazy. I have been under a rock. She's thick and she can't sing. That's all you need to know. If she's new, I'm sorry, Tate. You said Tate, like T-A-T? Yeah. I'm sorry, Tate. Yeah, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. When we're done, look her up on Instagram. Yeah, sure. Not on Spotify. Yeah, it's a better Instagram than Spotify. All right. So what do you what do you I mean, the obvious answer would be like a Taylor Swift kind of situation. I just don't. I was trying to think of somebody who this I mean, this as a compliment.

No, I can't say that. Hold on. Give me a second, fellas. It's all good. I could see like – so like Moretti's from like a different generation, and I could see somebody like Ozzy Osbourne, Alice Cooper. Alice Cooper's still alive. Yeah, he plays 36 holes of golf every day, so his cult leader vibe might – Well, I guess – I mean Charles Manson. Oh, you guys are off. I'm going, like, future. Yeah, I can't. I just, you know, I'm too big of a fan to even put that on his name. No, I think he inspires that kind of following is what I'm saying. I think the devout following, he could inspire. Yeah, but in order to be an actual cult leader, you have to sort of have devious intentions. Yeah, he's got ten baby mamas. He's got devious intentions. Now, one thing we don't do is future slander. Not on this pot. Not this pot or any pot. That's not slander. Zero slander. This is all complementary. That's just facts. I think it's cool. The future is a national treasure. You could get like 20 matching Hellcats for everybody to get around it. I could see it really working. I would watch that for sure. Maybe another way to frame this question because that question we're just guessing. Are there any current musical superstars who you believe use the media, use their critics, manipulate the media in a way that maybe the media is not aware of? You know what I mean? I don't know that I think the media is not aware of it. I think there are certain complicit parties. Yeah, but I also think that you see the majority of it, it's less entertainment. You know, like for me, I chose pop music as like the honey for the medicine in this because it feels good. And I thought creatively it'd be a nice contradiction of a horror film, but then songs that make you feel good. Right. And that felt interesting to me. And I wanted to, you know, try that and explore that. But I think that you see it a lot in politicians. You see it a lot in like thought leaders.

The manipulation is so obvious to me, it's almost boring to discuss. But I think that it has become so ubiquitous and rampant that we are starting to forgive it. And then the next phase after forgiveness is we will ignore it. And then the next phase after that is we won't recognize it. And so for me, I felt feel like Opus is urgent. The message is urgent. But I wanted the ride and the story to be fun. Like, again, you know, maybe Chris will watch the next one. But I'll catch the next one. Yeah, exactly. I saw Opus 1. He's going to catch Opus 2. That's my favorite bottle to cork. You got it, Chris. Good job. Yeah. Well, OK, I mean, that is good. I mean, I guess now that you say that and it's a great way to end the conversation, I think. But, you know, as I guess the word manipulation doesn't necessarily have to have a negative connotation to it. You as an artist are manipulating the audience, the critics, consciously or subconsciously, hopefully, you know, for the better. There can be good manipulation, right? No. Okay. I think no. Here's why I say no. Like, I understand what you're saying. And, you know, maybe we'll run into like a semantical disagreement where we actually agree. But I think manipulation has to have both intent and dishonesty. So in no way, shape or form, I think artists don't manipulate because I think all art has a level of honesty that makes it something different than manipulation. You can influence, you can try to affect, you can try to change somebody's mind, their heart, their POV. But like manipulation to me is assumption that. The way that you naturally are is wrong. And there's a lack of transparency in what I actually want. And I want to be very transparent about what I want with Opus. And that is simply for us to ask the question, does tribalism still serve us? Before that, I want you to have a really great time. There's no other desire that I have outside of that.

like like there's no other like objective obviously i want a bunch of things with the film and and it's a super dense film and but you know on the basic on the basic level that's what you're going for yeah yeah i just think art is transparent which is what makes it there which is why there's vulnerability and i think a lot of these bad the manipulators of the world they're some of the least vulnerable people You know, that's just not my perception of it. So maybe it's some it could be semantical. But I mean, I'm sure it is because I'm thinking like, what is an example of a positive manipulator? I'm thinking of like a hostage negotiator. You're trying to manipulate a bad person into doing something with skill. Yeah. And, you know, hopefully you're going to make that person feel good and not want to murder people. And if we are living in a world where we are, we're ignoring the ills of the world, we're forgetting. We've seen these waves and phases of bad – from racism to death to wars over religions and all this stuff. If we're being manipulated into forgetting that those things are happening and being controlled, then somebody like you could hopefully manipulate them into stopping the way they're thinking. I mean that's what good art does, I guess. Stop and think about it. Like, damn, this is fucked up. But I think we would say I want you to stop and think about it. That's my only – addition to what you're saying is the hostage negotiator isn't an artist You haven't seen Dog Day Afternoon, bro. I have seen Dog Day Afternoon. Great film. I thought you were going to say John Q. I feel like Chris would have said John Q and you would have said Dog Day Afternoon. I've never seen any of those movies. Don't worry. I couldn't participate if I tried. Chris has no idea any of the words I'm saying right now. So what are you doing with your time, Chris? How are you spending your time? It's called Love Island, Below Deck, Real Housewives. I read books, I listen to music, and I watch Bravo. That's the trifecta. You read books, listen to music. And watch Bravo. Bills paid, ass fat, nails done, watch Bravo, read books. Yeah. But I do appreciate you, and I pat you on the back for keeping a movie under two hours, which is something that people find really difficult these days. Other people have said that I hate that compliment. Hey, man. If you make a movie that you think...

is deserving of two and a half hours of someone's time. Hey, man, what you think is deserving and what I think are two very different things. You've got to get my ass in the seat to make another movie. I know. I know. I only watch a movie on the airplane, so bring it on. I watched Barry Lyndon yesterday, three hours and four minutes. Boom. That's most of the flight taken care of. I flew to LA yesterday. I didn't even turn the TV on. You just raw-dogged it? No, no, I worked. I used my computer to earn money for my family. I'm not going to waste five hours. He went down to the mines. I just don't. Yeah, it's just, I don't know. So people at home, do not be like Chris Black. Go see this movie. Oh, they know. They know not to be like Chris Black. No, trust me. Anybody listening to this podcast hates me and doesn't want to be anything like me. You're in no, there's no stress there. Chris is simply a cement wall that you and I are able to bounce ourselves off of for comedic relief. I'm a fan. I wouldn't join the Chris Black cult, but I would go to the informational. You would take a brochure. You'd throw it away when you get home. Yeah, I would go. I'd be like, oh, you know. When you go to an open house of a house you can't afford. Yeah, yeah. I want to see what's going on. Look, Mark, my teachings are universal, but they can be challenging. I can only imagine. Much like an open house, Chris, bad ideas, good bones. Good bones. I have great bones. Good bones. I see a lot of potential. Thank you, Mark, for joining us. We appreciate it, honestly. And the Opus is out, what, March 14th, you said? March 14th. Go see it. Hour and 43 minutes, ladies and gentlemen. Set your timers. Get your popcorn. The best hour and 43 minutes you'll have this year. There we go. All right. Thanks, Mark. Good luck with everything. We'll see you soon. We appreciate it. Later, y'all.

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