296. - Lili Anolik

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? What's up, Chris? Today is Tuesday. You're listening to this on Wednesday. It's another beautiful sunny day here in Glendale. It's been a busy day already. A lot has already happened, and I've also completed nothing. So it's a standard day for TJ over here. If you wouldn't have been texting me all morning trying to decide if you should switch your handles from themgenes to themgenes.eth, then we wouldn't have this problem. Your ass just found out what that meant, and you wanted to make a joke about it. Very cool, Chris. No, no, no. Unfortunately, I do know what it means. That doesn't make me have any interest in it. But what I do have interest in, Jason, is... Legendary seven-time Super Bowl winner Tom Brazy has retired from the NFL. I'd love to know how this is something that you care about, Chris. Other than the fact that he's a white champion, I don't really know how this really does anything for you. I don't know how it moves the chains, to use a football term, Chris. Look, as a guy who consistently gets first downs in life, it's not really that difficult to see the three-line for me and Brazy. No, the only reason I care about this is because... First downs in life? Flag on the play. Ten-yard penalty, fourth down. There was a flag on that play. I apologize. Dumbassness on the offense. No, so what I like about Tom Brady is he had that private doctor. Okay.

They were on some twisted ass shit. Like that one doctor for like the women's gymnastics team? Like that kind of vibe? No, no. Like blood doping, like eating wild. Like I'm only eating cabbage for six months. Like weird, weird shit. But I'm thinking. I did not know about any of this. He calls himself a body coach. AG underscore TB12 on Instagram. He said on his post, he said, currently updating my resume. Anyone out there looking for a body coach winky face emoji? am looking for a body coach, do you think I can afford Tom Brady's personal body coach? You know, like you said before, you only score first downs in life, but I feel like Tom was probably paying him more money than you might be able to afford. No offense, no shots. You know what I mean? You're my bro. I know, I know. But do you think there's a world in which this doctor is looking to take on a young up-and-comer and mold him into the next bracing? You are older than Tom Brady, but I think there is a possibility that you could be right, yeah. It doesn't make me less of an up-and-comer, Jason, that we can up-and-come at any age. Up-and-coming in what? Up-and-coming. No, actually, Tom Brady is 44. I didn't know he was that old. Damn. That's why people care about him, bro. That's why he's so impressive is because he's used. Damn, I'm old. Nobody cares about me. That's because you haven't won anything, and you also don't use steroids in a way that is this impressive. I've won a lot of stuff. Not as much of it has got the kind of national recognition. Bro, you didn't even win an LA Weekly Best Local DJ poll. Don't do that. That's wrong. I placed. I placed. You were honorable mention. Look, a lot of us didn't get rings that year, and that's fine. That 10 years. A lot of us didn't get rings that 10 years. No, no, no, no. I made it. That's the only reason that the Brazy stuff has affected me at all, but I don't think that he's retiring after a loss, which I think most people do. Yeah, that's right. I think it's cooler to go out on top. After I win a Super Bowl, I'm walking off. I'm going straight to Disneyland. I'm taking Giselle and my three kids with me. We're obviously going to pray first. Yeah, but he's already – I mean, how many rings does he have? He has a bunch of rings, right? Literally seven, but still. I think he should have quit after he won the seventh versus losing the eighth. You know what I mean? That's what I'm saying. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he should have known. He should have had a time machine to predict.

which games he was going to win and lose. Well, no, Jason, I know I confused you by saying losing an eighth because I think you thought that was the weed that's in between the seats and the Nissan. But I was talking about the Super Bowl. Right, you were talking about the Super Bowl. So he should have known which game he was going to lose and then not even try. No, no, Jason. No, no, no. No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying when you're 44 years old, you know that the clock is a ticking. And you won seven. Maybe just, you know, you had to switch teams. You're living in Tampa Bay now, which works out. for you because you're a trump guy but you should still probably so so the chris black rule of thumb for when to call it wait till you get seven no no wait till you're on the absolute peak and your body's starting to break down and then exit quietly well you know i think this is a thing that people have been wrestling with for decades if not centuries and unfortunately that's because there's no real right answer to a scenario problem like this you know how do you how do you put yourself into the mind nay, heart of a champion. We got Rafa. Rafa just won. He's old as hell. He's got no hair. His male pattern self-tanner is truly tragic. But have you seen the biceps? He's going up against a guy who's 10 years younger, 5 inches taller, and he still won. So when does he quit? But I think the game of tennis and the toll it takes in your body at... at his age versus the game of football and the toll it takes on your body as a quarterback at Tom's age are two different things, is the reality. But I also think that Medvedev looks like a coder from a Russian basement, like we've talked about before, but somehow still manages to whip ass on the court. Even though he lost, he obviously played a strong match. But aging is something we all deal with, Jason, as we confront it. I know that your body is breaking down in some ways and I'm starting to feel the same thing for me. So I just, you know, my body is breaking down, but luckily my hairline is regenerating. How's your mental though? Cause it's not great. Who said, who said that? Show yourself my mental. I mean, honestly, there's no way of really knowing based on the marijuana use, you know, like if, uh, if I was, if I maintain a straight edge lifestyle this whole time,

I mean, Road Scholar, MIT full ride. My mental. The only time I feel mentally strong is a two-hour period in the middle of the day when I have a good patch B12 on and a coffee. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's the only time I'm really flying. Okay, so not the morning coffee, the afternoon coffee. And don't really shout out good patch until the check clears, all right, Chris? Oh, I'm sorry. But it does. It makes a big difference in my energy level. That's when you feel your most. mentally alert you say usually right about now when we're when we're podcasting at our normal time and i've done the right preparation i've had my correct workout i'm about three quarters the way through the gallon i've got my patch on i've had a call you know all that stuff has to has to kind of line up for me to be firing on all cylinders i don't know if you require as much as i do you're not as much of a diva how upset do you get when just any one of these little cogs in the wheel becomes bent and you you don't get to have the what do you say i've received the required amount of of uh nutrition and exercise you've had your correct workout like if any of that no i don't get but doesn't happen i don't get bent out of shape i know that that life is unfortunately um fast moving and changing that i have to i must be nimble and adapt like all great creative agencies you know are you are you as nimble as you think you are chris that's the real kind of existential question that all of us creatives definitely i'm not you know sure sure i can pivot but how nimble am i i know unfortunately right now probably not that nimble but it's something to work towards and that's what we all need to stay alive jason yeah i mean i've been thinking because like i love to pivot and i love to be nimble just like you and just like everyone else but there's so much of the day-to-day kind of minutiae vis-a-vis gets in the way and i'm like maybe i need a a more comprehensive crm solution to kind of help tackle some of those you know tasks that end up eating up a lot of my busy work time what do you think chris i think you're too into busy work i think you i think you like busy work more than real work is is what i've discovered about you you're talking about the deep work the sitting down and no no no no no no no no

I think you prefer to do chores. You're saying I prefer the busy work versus the real work. And then I was saying an example of the real work might be. Oh, I'm sorry. Blank page, creating something from scratch, whatever, writing that book, finishing that deck. whatever, so that's more of the stuff that you're better at. No, not necessarily. I mean, I'm better at it than you, but that's like saying, I mean, you know, I'm better at walking than a baby. I mean, I've seen a lot of the decks that you've made, and they are works of art, and I don't use that word lightly. If any of my clients are listening, I've never made a deck. We know. We know you've never made a duck. I love to hire talented, young, hungry creatives to do that kind of stuff for me using those programs. My computer's kind of full, I noticed. Why is it so – is it all of your kind of like 3D animation files? A lot of your video editing stuff eats up a lot of hard drive space. It's all my pirated Fellini movies I have to keep. No, I don't know. I don't know why. My computer seems full though because I tried to install the new iOS and it said it was too full. And then I was like, I guess I'll just buy a new one. Like what do you do? What do you mean? What do you do? Well, first of all, I would love to know why your computer is full. Earlier before we recorded, you said I never delete an email, and that could be something. Is that true, or were you being facetious? No, I don't delete emails. Why would I delete emails? I might need them. I don't need to be inbox zero. I'm not a dork. No, no, neither do I. I mean, my inbox right now, I'm looking at my inbox for my Gmail daily driving account, 19,000 messages, 7,000 unread. I'm at 43,979. But they're all red. Okay, they're all red. I mean, a lot of it, all the unread ones are just, yeah, it's just junk. I mean, I will delete junk sometimes, but I just don't go, I don't, like, deleting email doesn't make me feel good. Like, I don't care. I know that I've responded to the important stuff, and that makes me feel good. I'm just saying, I'm just saying. Well, I mean, my hard drive, because I am an actual creator, I do have to go in and clear out my hard drive space. And you can just click Apple on the top left corner about this Mac, and then just move over to the storage tab at the top.

and it will show you how much you have left on your hard drive. You could manage that, delete files, things like that. Is this something maybe you could help me with, like you would maybe do it for me? Is that possible? Well, the problem is, Chris, I'm going to have to kind of handhold you because every single file, unless you give me executive powers, I'm going to have to go through and be like, well, do you need this? document from 2017 do you need this well we could sit down maybe we could sit down and do it together over a nice meal you know i'll take you to one of the restaurants you like um in san gabriel valley and we'll just we'll get a booth okay and um I'll just tell them to keep the appetizers coming. Put another pot of jasmine tea on. We're going to be here for a while. That's what you're going to say. We're going to be burning the midnight oil. Leave the bottle. Yeah, I'll say leave the bottle. And we'll just kind of go through each file. I think it could be a nice team-building experience for us. Maybe we should go to a cabin to do it. Okay, well, this is starting to add up. Because before, I'd be like, sure, I'll do anything for a free picking duck. But now you're talking about renting an Airbnb? I mean, this is... I wouldn't charge you, of course. This would be coming out of... me oh no i know chris i know chris you know how it is to be a contractor you know um but i i think i i need help because you know now that i'm not with with jay ellis my czar i need someone else who kind of understands the computers to help me because i'm not good you need the geek squad well you know chris i'd say it's it's a little bit of boy who cried i don't know what that's what you are what What do you mean? I mean, you know, you do a lot of making fun of the techie, nerdy, that sort of thing, but I'm saying now that you need help. Bro, I'm not asking you to create a Discord channel for me to talk about anime. I'm asking you to help me clean up my hard drive. I still think dorks are dorks, but there's a certain level of computer knowledge. I actually think you have the optimal amount.

Because it's not your personality, but you know what to do when the time comes. It's one of your strong sweets. Thanks for saying sweet. Yeah, and I agree with all of that, and all I'm saying is stop making fun of me for it, and maybe one day I'll help you. That's all. I don't think, but I was being nice because we're in a public forum, but if you think you have a choice in helping me, that's where you're mistaken, too. Well, if you want these files to make it from the Zoom recorder to the hard drive to your iMessage to Ableton, that's a pathway that could be clogged if this problem doesn't get resolved. I thought you were a union buster, Chris. This sounds like you... are striking are you doing a strike from your can you strike from your own business though i would never strike first of all i'm not a pussy i would never strike i don't march that's cold i would never do that i'm just too cold to march what if i was picketing out picketing outside of your house i just like the i mean that is also funny but just the act of striking your own business that you started you know that's pretty cool causing my own wallet to suffer is is i'm not a bleeding heart on that level. I think those kind of people do exist. I don't like the way that I'm treating myself, and I'm striking against myself's work conditions. I am absolutely disgusted by the size of my hard drive, and I'm going to shut my computer until somebody takes care of this. I can't work another minute. This is almost, you know, I would say... eight to ten more minutes in the writers room and we've got ourselves an onion headline the way those guys work it could be years before we break through over there always late but worth the wait over there at the onion i i couldn't agree more i couldn't agree more but i'm i mean This is something we have to work on, but I also feel like I'm getting too old to understand anything more. So I just rely on people around me that are smarter. That's kind of my whole approach to life. You sound a lot like retired NFL star Tom Brady right now. Well, I'm only missing... Admitting your old defeat. Well, that's the only place I'm defeated. Obviously, everywhere else, I'm absolutely thriving. So thriving. I don't know any shortcuts on Slack, unfortunately. I love that you also use Slack way more than...

I'd be in Slack all dizzy. No, it's really – I mean, I actually like it. I think it's a good – I don't – Discord I hate. Slack is actually useful. I mean, I prefer email, but it makes sense. The problem is you have to remind yourself to check it. That's the thing. If I'm not – I'm not like – it's tough on my cell phone to be doing that. Right. So like the way that checking Dumois and Instagram is compulsive. For you, you don't even have to think about it. You're saying you're still not there with Slack yet. I'm not there with Slack yet. I would say that's potentially a good thing. I think so too. Healthy for the mental. I try to keep my mental healthy, Jason. I know you do the same thing. We're a mental health forward podcast. Before we start talking to our guests, I would... There's a statement made yesterday by a friend of the show, Yay West. Yay West. I just want to read it out loud because it's truly, I think it feels very similar to what we're doing on this podcast, except for the time where you forced me to make an NFT. My focus is on building real products in the real world, real food, real clothes, real shelter. Do not ask me to do a fucking NFT. How did this make you feel as a yay stan? I mean, I would argue that his clothes aren't real. They're just like weird fictional things that he's created in his mind, like jackets that make you look like a garbage bag. I do love his work in shelters. He has some of the coolest shelters I've ever seen in years. Well, a tent outside where you worship Jesus. It is a shelter. Technically, it's a shelter. I think he might be talking about his Montana tax shelter, and he has done a great job with that. And what else? He's making real food? I mean, I don't know. I mean, I know that he is working in the food space, but I have yet to see any of that yet. I can't wait to try a Kanye West bowl. at my local yay bowls. I'm thinking, is it a Real Food Daily collaboration? Is that too regional? Real Food Daily, my fallen hero, does need help. It's rough over there. Actually, it makes me wonder where Fat Kanye is eating nowadays. Chipotle. You know that he'd be eating. He'd be eating good. He might have a chef, but he might make the chef make him...

you know, burgers and fries. No, he definitely has a chef, and he's definitely eating the Yeezy Elote Bowl. Seasonal. Yeezy Elote Bowl! Off-menu Yeezy Elote Bowl. You have to say, you have to order it with a hand at the end to get it. They won't give it to you otherwise. But, you know, he's just a regular Joe at the end of the day, like you and I, you know, from the streets of Chi-Town. So, you know, he's got, you know, R. Kelly, he's eating his Mickey D's. I don't know. Is Kanye, is Kanye's, like, pull over, we gotta go to Wendy's? I don't know what he's doing. I think he's a McDonald's guy, but I think he's much like you, and you guys have a lot in common that we can unpack later, but I think he probably eats in the car a lot, the way you do. Well, I actually hate eating in the car, unless it's a time- You seem to love it. Unless it's a time-sensitive meal. Like, french fries, you hit the drive-thru of the french fries, by the time you get home, It's a soggy mess. It's a dark, twisted fantasy that is not beautiful. You'd be pretty upset if you spilled some cheese on the red leather seats of the Cybertruck. Of course. No, no, no. When I'm grinding in the Cybertruck, I set that shit up like Dexter. Not laboratory. I'm talking about Showtime's next year. The tarp is going down. Nary a stain of DNA is to be spotted. So you're on your serial killer vibe to keep the Tesla clean. No, my tidy game, brazy. Okay, on that note, we do have a guest today. I wonder if her tidy game is brazy because she has two kids. That's fucked up, man. All right, so Lily Analik, she's a contributing editor at Vanity Fair. She's also written for Harper's Esquire and The Believer. Her book, Hollywood's Eve, about Eve Babbitts, is available now. And she also is the host and creator of Once Upon a Time at Bennington College, a podcast that goes in on the young lives of many famous writers, most notably.

Friend of the show, Brady Snellis. Shout out to Big Brett. Okay, well, let's give Lily a Zoomy, and we will get into all of this and more. Let's go. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian, stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How Long Gone. It was brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture. repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a Tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because Taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs, handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world,

is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code. how long taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, sort of our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools. So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept, quote unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. You know, show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early and we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional. as your competition, if not more. Head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Appreciate you joining us, but I came into this thinking it was an elite podcaster showdown, and obviously you've proven that wrong, incorrect. If only I could use NFT technology to give you some headphones from my house through the Zoom call, because...

When I say I have dozens of pairs, I mean I have dozens of pairs. I have to ask, though, just as a human being, how do you not have headphones? Well, whenever I do the recording of the podcast, I go into a studio. I was talking about walking down the street and taking a phone call. Yeah. Yeah, you live in New York City. You're walking down the street. You're going to Equinox. Your kids are annoying you. You want to listen to How Long Gone. You're listening to New York Times The Daily. Yeah, how do you commute in the subway? Do you just – you go speakerphone? I vamp. I vamp. I don't know how to use this. I have like a – a pair of cheap earbuds, which, which totally work, but. Oh no, no, no. It's, it's, it's just, you know what, it's something to talk about and that's what we need here. You know, we need more content. We need fuel. Your, your Luddite lifestyle is, is pure content for us. Don't worry. It's honestly pretty cool. It's honestly pretty cool to be like, I don't even, sorry, I don't have any headphones. The ones that come with my phone for free. I don't know where those are. I don't even know. I don't know. I, I, I'm just doubly apologetic. I made my husband like give me a tutorial on how to press record on this thing this morning. Is your, husband a member of the audio community no it's a doctor but i made him figure it out oh no wonder you got two kids now it makes sense i'd procreate with him too that makes a little more sense okay what kind of doctor are we talking about what kind of doctor are we talking about dermatology but cosmetics oh the good stuff oh damn i might need to see him as i get a little older shout out to our sponsor soft services yeah have you tried their buffing bar lily I will after this. Okay. Damn, so he's a New York City dermatologist. That's right. So what does he wear to work? Is it like business casual or is it like suit? No, no, he wears scrubs. He wears scrubs to work. Did you think that when you went on this podcast, how long gone? You were going to field 20 minutes of questions about what your husband is wearing right now? I never anticipated, but, you know, I'm happy to be fielding these questions. He wears a set of black scrubs. That is what he wears. Does he kind of add a little of his own personal flair with his shoes, though? He actually used to wear a suit, and he was getting, like, human matter, blood and stuff on his... Human matter? Human matter.

The kid who put the ties on and he started to get disturbed about this. That makes sense. That makes sense. He's smart. So when I got my LASIK surgery, that's the last – I don't do a lot of doctor stuff just because I'm incredibly healthy and really great shape. Very Trump-like. Whoa, whoa, whoa. We're going to get back to that Arctic blast Gatorade that you just took a sip out of. Yeah, I don't think you're getting away with that. So I was noticing all the young – so when I went on Yelp to look at this doctor, A lot of people were commenting that his female staff was hot, basically. Chris, why is hot in air quotes? Because if you're going on Yelp, I don't think you know what hot is, is kind of what I'm getting at. You're on Yelp. I was on Yelp because, of course, this guy and the guy I bought my car from are the two people that asked me to go on Yelp. Look, sometimes I've checked out some elite Yelpers when I'm looking at my San Gabriel Valley restaurants. I've seen a couple baddies, okay? I believe you. Lily knows. Lily knows. I noticed that all these, like, quote, unquote, hot female assistants in the office were all wearing this new DTC scrub brand called Figs. Was it stated? Yeah, they had their little asses out. That was the whole thing. Yeah. And you better hope your husband ain't doing the same thing is what I'm getting at. Figs as in the fruit fig, but plural. I believe so, but they do different colors and shit. It's cool and a little more expensive, but it's like a thing. Okay, I'm looking at figs right now. Yeah, it's just kind of like a cross between a jogger. It's like if skims made scrubs. Yeah. Scrims. perhaps. It's not a bad idea. No, it's a great idea. Yeah, sometimes, you know, for the most fuckable frontline workers we have in America, figs is a perfect solution for them. That should be their tagline, figs for fuckable. That's really... You gotta wear tight clothes. You gotta wear tight clothes. Horny heroes work here. So, but Lily, we did see, you know, I saw you sipping on a Gatorade. Are you hungover or is this just, you're feeling good? I'm feeling great. I'm just trying to hydrate.

I'm always dehydrated, and we're going to be talking for a while. Why are you always dehydrated? Is this a medical issue? Is it a skin thing? You should have your hot husband check it out. I just don't like to drink that much, you know, like period. Like what you're doing right now effortlessly with your water, I never do that. Oh, I see. So you don't even want a Diet Coke. You're just like, I'm kind of good. That's very cool. That's very cool. The same way I'm a never nude, you're a never sit. Yes. That is right. Can't be bothered. Cannot be bothered. I find it annoying. I find the whole peeing thing, all of it. I just like to stop. Hates to piss. Interesting. I find drinking annoying. Alcohol? No, just stuff. Just anything. Maybe we can get a hypnotist to hypnotize you into being more into peeing. Maybe an ayahuasca retreat will get you more into drinking water. Who knows? I do know a lot of people like that. And as a person who is... base my life around drinking water, it's really hard for me to understand. But I do, I'm so accustomed to drinking so much and urinating so much that I don't even want that extra time. You don't even want it. You don't want it. Yeah, I want these days to be over as fast as possible. You know what I mean? I need to get, like, I'm sprinting towards death. Let's unpack that a little bit, Chris. Well, I always feel like my dad was a hydrator. We talked about him in the house. Like, oh, he's peeing again. endless, you know, liquids. We all just thought it was stupid. So maybe that, maybe we thought it was the Freudian root of all my, of my dehydration. We thought it was stupid. We thought it was so dumb. He's like, oh, pardon me. I'm just going to head to the boys' room. You're like, that's fucking stupid. Dumbass dad. What did, what was his beverage of choice? I mean, was it anything or was he a water guy? Anything but water. Oh, anything but water. Okay. So, so scotch, milk. Like, whatever. No, he hate smoke. It would be like, oh, he really got into the kombucha thing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anything carbonated. Mm-hmm. Any juice. I just found it so gross. Enough, enough. For a waste of time, stop. Who's drinking all this juice? It's disgusting. Yes. Okay, I mean, it's funny because, like, when I think of, like, the old kind of classic dad archetype guy. Yeah. As it pertains to fluids or urination, it's kind of like, you know, peeing in the yard.

That's like a thing that like a manly thing that you do to like stake your personal territory or worse be peeing in the sink. But you're talking about just a normal, I drink a glass of orange juice and eventually it's going to come out of me. Can't be, can't deal with it. I have a problem with it. That's cool, man. I think it's nice that you're taking a stand and in a public forum. Could you let us know what flavor of Gatorade that was? It is. I like the blue the best. It looks like one of the fluid that you put in your. You know, like your windshield wiper fluid? When you say you like the blue Gatorade, I think as a Gatorade fan, you're aware that there's a spectrum of blue colors on their market. Absolutely. That's why I looked. That's why I looked. It was Glacier. It's the light pale blue. I'm actually supposed to be doing something for Grubhub this week, right down when I eat, and I eat nothing natural. Oh, you're doing the famous Grub Street Diet. Have you read Jason's? A fellow auteur. A legendary Grub Street Diet. Wait, did you actually read it? Yeah, I did actually read it. As a New Yorker, how much did you hate it? I was into it. I liked insight into you, dietary insight, but it's making me conscious of the fact that I eat no natural foods. Oh, so you're not like a healthy chick? You're not in on that whole thing? So when you say natural foods, you just mean like... Yes, I ate a lot of processed foods. I ate a lot of processed foods. Like, wait, what do you... Do you guys go to restaurants or are you saying... No, I do go to restaurants. I don't cook, so we order in a lot. Okay, so here's the thing. I really love... I love Pepsi Zero. Diet Pepsi, but not Diet Pepsi, Pepsi Zero. And they introduce to mango flavor. I go to Midtown. There's a 7-Eleven in Midtown. It's the only place I know that sells it. I like to make weekly tracks there. Okay, you just said Mango Pepsi Zero? And I know they're going to discontinue it, and I know this is the last place it has it. I know it. Mango Pepsi Zero. For going to Midtown that much, I would just go and be like, hey. I would like to negotiate the purchase of the remainder of your stock, have it shipped to the house. I know people that have done this with a fragrance. If their favorite fragrance is discontinued, they buy 15 of them on eBay or at the store because they're like, I don't know what's going to happen. Elaine Venice with the sponge. Yes, exactly the same thing. Yeah, I don't do that. I don't like to have more than five and a half at a time.

Have too many. Are they the 20 ounce plastic? Yeah. Okay. Are you pouring it on ice with a straw or are you straight out of the bottle? I like it out of the bottle. I hate ice. I hate it. I don't like it hits my face. I don't like it. My teeth, I'm not into it at all. You don't like it when the ice hits your face? So you're an aggressive drinker, it sounds like. I didn't realize. I am very strong. I'm dehydrated. I don't drink enough. I have very fixed ideas about what I can drink. It sounds like you're ingesting quite a lot of processed foods, a lot of soda. What's the workout routine? Because you look good. That's really nice of you to say. And I'm telling you what, if I drank that many Pepsi mangoes... I don't know how I would look. Well, this is my guess. Not to put on my doctor's hat, but Lily's one of those people that looks great, eats awful. Whatever's happening on the inside is like a full war, a battleground. It is a dire situation on the insides, but for now, you look great. I'm bringing up my father again, which is making me sound nuts. We don't use the N-word on this podcast, but go on. Crazy. Screwy. Crazy. That's even worse. The C word. He said that the family crest was like two dead pigeons on a pizza box, meaning we're peasants. I'm a peasant. I feel like that kind of thing won't kill me. My stuff isn't fancy enough to get damaged. Okay, so you remind me of my rescue dog, Bean. The dog was found basically in an oil barrel behind an auto body repair shop. You're saying like if I don't – if I stop eating garbage and chicken bones and rocks, then this complex system will shut down. If you stop eating Pepsi Mango Zero and Wheat Thins for breakfast, you'll be in the emergency room within minutes. So it sounds like a key – Keith Richards stopping heroin kind of thing. Exactly. He's got to do a bump a week to stay alive, you know, if he stopped completely. I did a book on this woman named Eve Babbitt, and Eve was convinced that Keith Haring had stayed alive for so long because he stuck to one drug.

Right, like he abused himself with one drug. She thought that was really healthy. What drug was Keith on? Heroin, right? Yeah, heroin's the, I mean. That's a great drug if you want to stay alive. Yeah, it is. I mean, honestly, people, there's a lot of functioning heroin addicts because if you do it right and you like snort it and stuff, you can kind of just coast through the day. If you do it wrong, you die very quickly. But if you do it right. Mixing will kill you quicker than that will, though, I think. That's what people, when the body is confused and doesn't know whether to go up or down, it can be. Treacherous. Okay. Heroin and Pepsi Mango Zero. Heroin is your Pepsi Mango Zero. And oddly enough, I got to go to Uptown to get both. Yeah, yeah. What neighborhood are you guys in in New York? Tribeca. Oh, baby. Lily's living the life, Jason. This is what a podcaster should live like. We're fucking broke losers. Do you have a car that's on top of a garage that has to lift up on the lift thingy? I know what you're talking. No, no, we have no car. Are you from New York? Boston. Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. It's all tracking. It's all tracking. So my parents, my brother, and his boyfriend all live in Tribeca now, too. So now the whole family's here. Wow. Wait, your parents and your brother and your brother's partner all came to your neighborhood? My parents were here first. Okay. We came there. And then my brother followed. So like the whole family's here. Damn. So the family is like very tight knit. You guys struggle if you're not together the same way your body struggles without Pepsi. Not a healthy situation either, but it works. I was going to say, because I was discussing this with, you know, in the South where I'm from, you know, what happens often is the grandfather or maybe the father has a, you know, the house that you grew up in is on a large plot of land. And then when you reach a certain age, they bless you. with your own area of that land to build your own house on. So in Tribeca, obviously, it's a little more costly. You know what I mean? It's the same kind of idea. Yeah, I think to get the same amount of acreage over there in Tribeca might be a little different. I live in Tribeca for a while, and I do love it, but I find it to be, and now it's gotten better, but the dining options.

I know. It's Nobu Next Door or Mr. Chow or Bubby's. It's right where I live. I live like across from Bubby's. Okay, great. I mean, so you're close to the beautiful Greenwich Hotel, which also offers some great dining options. I was there two days ago. But I basically eat at Odeon. That's where I just go. Anytime I'm doing anything social, that's where I go. Odeon. What about Frenchette? I never go there. No one goes to Frenchette anymore, Jason. It's over. Frenchette's not over. No, I'm kidding. But Odeon is – Lily, that's basically your beat, though, at this point, right? Right? Like, and I remember, like, Brett telling me he did Coke with Basquiat in the bathroom there, and I always think that when I walk in. The fact that I've never done – I've actually never done Coke at Odeon, and I don't like that about myself. No. It's a source of shame I should imagine. And you never will. Chris, I'll do it the next time, and I'll let you know how it goes. I'll do 1,500 words. What is your order at Odeon, Lily? Lily, what's your go-to? Okay, so if I'm in there at night, I get salmon, and I get them to burn it. Burn it, burn it. I like it burnt, and I get upset because everybody wants to, like, I feel like if you're going to eat salmon in a classy way, you undercook it or whatever. Yeah, that's right. That's right. A little pink in the middle. No, I like it dry. Dry, dry as a bone. Lily. I'm loving this. How much are you spending on therapy? Because I know you. Zero dollars. Zero dollars. Can you believe it? No, you see, really? No, you're well adjusted. You remind me of myself as a person who knows what they like and is not afraid to get it, Jason. That's what you got to do. Yeah, but what happened to you to get into this place, though, you know? The vice grip that's on your mind. Yeah, no, I can't even go near that one. Okay, that's for episode two. Okay, so you want them to burn this salmon, a tragedy in the culinary world. Yeah, they get upset. One time I was in... I was in a restaurant in L.A. and a chef refused to do it. I mean, I like my salmon. I like my salmon cooked. I don't like it pink either. Burnt is strong. Burnt is strong. When you're saying burnt, is that a euphemism or are you talking about literally make it black? I want to make it black. I don't like it when it's wet and pink. You can taste it however you want it, but I don't like it when it's wet and pink. It's the only thing of what I want in my food. I get it.

Honestly, I stand with Lily yet again. I mean, I stay away from it. That's disrespectful to an unsustainably raised farm salmon. It's already had such a tough life. Respected by cooking it perfectly, Lily. And then, Jason, I covered it in salt. So much salt. You're a nasty street pervert of a woman. You know that? What about sushi? Do you eat raw fish? No, I don't like that. I used to, and then I changed. What happened? You can't just change. It was great. Now I find it obscene. It's just an obscenity sitting on my phone. So what do you feed your kids? Because I don't want these kids to grow up in this kind of household. You kind of have a Fran Lebo. You got a Fran Lebo. Am I going to have to call defects on the way you're feeding your children? I eat lots of fruit and vegetables. Well, fruit. They won't eat vegetables. But I distract them and just shove it in their face. That's how it works. Sure. All right, Lily, what cigarettes did you use to smoke? Because I know you don't anymore. Never smoked. Oh, no. Okay, you should start smoking. No drug, no drink, no cigarette. Nothing. You need to pick up the pack of Pall Malls because you got a couple. A couple of toots of steam that need to come out. You never partied in college? Did you ever party or no? Never. What about CrossFit? Where do you go CrossFitting? We have an elliptical in the apartment. In a dark room, I don't want anyone to see me do this. Don't elliptical alone. You could have a little big scenario. I want anyone to look at me while I do it. I just feel – Lily, I've only known you for 20 minutes, and I feel like you've really got it figured out. I'm very impressed. Honestly, with everything you've said so far, I really feel like we're – Because I love that you're going here with me. We have an otherworldly kinship of people that aren't afraid to like things that other people might find disgusting. Yeah, Lily, you are a sister in arms with Chris's particular brand of psychopathy or psychosis. Yeah, I'm not taking you, Jason. I can just see you just being unhappy across the table for me, but I will take Chris. I can't be at the same table as a burnt salmon order. That's bad for my reputation. Grub Street will unfollow me. I can't. Well, now I'm very excited for your Grub Street diet. I will say you've done an amazing 20-minute preview on what we have to offer, and it's not even behind a paywall, so this is perfect. And it's more to come.

There's even more wheat thins I'll be eating throughout the week. You thought it ended with wheat thins? Wait until I get into my Triscuit chapter. You will not believe how good it is. You're like, I don't do any hummus from a place. I like the Sabra that I get from my local Safeway. I buy that on airplanes. That's right. You buy the hummus and pretzel chip on the airplanes? I actually don't. I don't do that. It's not true because I think it smells. It does smell. It does smell. It's rude to other passengers, I agree. Yeah, I don't do it. I'm a model. I'm a model airplane passenger and I always take the middle seat. What? They don't have middle seats in Delta One, Lily. Don't lie to us. I saw that you guys fetishized Delta One. Whatever. And I always am in the middle because I booked last minute. It's always bad. And I'm always next to someone very heavy. You're talking about physically or emotionally? Only physically. Got it. Because you must have been coming to L.A. quite a lot to write your book. You're absolutely right. I'm always in L.A. I was in L.A. like a week and a half ago. Where do you stay? What's your go-to? Sunset Tower chick? That is where I stayed. Because after you told me you were a middle seat JetBlue, you don't care. I was hoping you weren't going to be like, oh, there's a Hilton by LAX that I kind of like. I don't know. No, no, no. I like Sunset Tower. I used to. So in the. I went in March and I stayed at the Chateau Marmont, which was really fun because I was like Eloise. There was no one else in there. Yes, I experienced that there as well. It's amazing. It's amazing. You're running up and down the stairs. No one but you. We've talked about it before on this podcast. During quarantine, the only time you would go to the Chateau is when you need to take nude selfies by a pool and no one is around. Had I known, I would have totally taken advantage. I didn't even know. It's worth $1,200 a night. It's absolutely worth $1,200 a night. Total bargain. No service, but there is a pool and there's no one at it, which is – it's affordable when you look at it that way. Is it the every other day cleaning service? Yeah, every other day. But you've got to put a note out. You know what I mean? You can't – they're not just going to come. I know. But what do you – so with the book about Eve and even some of your – I feel like L.A. is in some ways a spiritual home for you, but –

Yeah. Or do you hate it? No, no, I love it. And I was there for like Tracy Lords. That was the Valley. And then even Bennington because early writings in Ellis, you know, it's all, he's the Valley too, Sherman Oaks. Yeah, the recent fetishization of the Valley is something I didn't see coming. And thank you to Paul Thomas Anderson, of course, the beautiful Alana Haim for pushing that into the zeitgeist in a bigger way. Fuck Paul Thomas Anderson. Lily is the one who wrote the book on the Valley. I don't really get it. It's nice. I mean, I get it. It's slower, and it's got cool old stuff, but I just don't. It's just like Brooklyn. It's just like everyone lives in L.A. That's the heart of it, and then the Valley is like that's the other stuff on the side. It's not as big and powerful, but it's still of note. There's still interesting things coming out of there. If you approach Hollywood straight on, it's kind of blander. Everyone's done it. I like the Valley in the 80s corn industry because it was kind of like a cartoony. I'm more literal. I just, I loved it. I loved it, like, putting it next to Hollywood. Yeah, no, I get it. Yeah, I like that about it. That makes sense. I don't know this, but it's not, like, significantly cheaper to live there, or is it? You know, it used to be. I think it definitely used to be. Definitely. Okay. But now it's just, you know, everything costs a lot out there. I mean, if you go really deep, deep, deep valley. Oh, yeah. Sure. You're totally right. The first time I went there, it was like. It was before Vanity Fair when I was just really scrapping, and I knew Al Goldstein, you know, of Screw Magazine. Do you know who that is? I put detour on the map. So I knew all these kind of 70s, like, kind of fun scuzz hounds, 70s porn guys. And so one of them. Scuzz hounds. Totally. And this one guy, Bill Margold, who's called the Papa Bear of Porn. I think he would give, like, girls who got AIDS, like, this is awful. Like, he would give them a dirty teddy bear. Is that a, you mean like a literal teddy bear that's dirty or is that, or is that another one of your sex euphemisms? I'm speaking totally literally. And I remember him, he had something called the bear mobile. It was this big DW van and it didn't work. And he drove me to meet Jim. Chris's X-5. Yeah. The brakes didn't work. And we went over like kind of like through Laurel Canyon and we went up and down like over the mountain.

It was covered in cat hair. Everything was filthy. It was these dirty teddy bears. That was my first time in the Valley. So it seemed like a proper introduction, you know? Why do you think it's produced so many interesting people? Well, it looks bland, but it's wild, you know? Like one of those kind of places. Yeah. Well, Chris, don't they say that L.A. is – or no, that Florida is like if you tip America on its side, that's where everyone goes? Is that Florida or is that L.A.? That's Florida. But it's kind of like if you tip – L.A. on its side. Yeah. And, like, all the shit just goes into the valley. That's just where it ends up, over the hill, you know? I guess I'm into all that. Hey, as somebody who technically lives in the 818, welcome home, sister. I'm in Glendale, so it's like a little, it's not the, it's still technically the valley. Are you a Mildred Pierce person? No, I would say not, really. Oh, man. Well, I always get so excited because I said James in the main novel and then it was made into the Joan Crawford. Whatever. She lives in Glendale and she thinks it's hell on earth. And I remember getting very excited the first time I went to Glendale. It just looked like a nice suburb. I guess she's not Armenian then, which is interesting. I couldn't tell by her name. Come on, Chris. Come on. I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry. Well, I'll do some looking into Mildred Pierce and her hatred of Glendale. You really should because it's, you know, Glendale's a guy. It's almost a character in that book. No shit. Okay. Glendale plays itself. Yeah, Glendale plays itself. Glendale plays itself. I just think it's fascinating that in L.A., more than any place in the world, like, these suburbs are like romanticized a little bit like in other places if you go to a suburb of atlanta there's no like oh well this is the you know the culture step your game up chris step your game up sure sure chris you can don't yeah no i don't want you can cough but you totally can i was just gonna say like la is not a city right like it's it's like a collection of places so of course you're gonna fetishize, eroticize certain places. No, I understand that, but it's like Brooklyn I hate. I don't want to go there. I don't want to talk about it. I think it's stupid. The Valley, I think there are some parallels to Brooklyn, like Jason is saying, but I will happily go to Burbank. It's closer to Queens, I think. I feel like it doesn't have that. Maybe now, but the Valley was just out of it. You were supposed to be out of it. You were not

centrally located in any way and I don't think it was full of itself yeah yeah yeah if you were from the valley you're a dweeb trying to make it in into Hollywood yeah and it was like this was like product like when I was doing the Bennington thing and Brett you know he writes Less Than Zero at Bennington and he comes out of Sherman Oaks And the kids were all like, they would be like, no, you don't understand. If you came from the Valley, nothing cool happened in the Valley. It was just embarrassing. Social suicide. There you go. And you remember this. Did you guys watch, you guys are younger than I am, but you must've watched clueless. Yeah, of course. Way too many times. We've dated, we've dated women. So it is something you have to see at some point. My grandmother, rest her soul. She saw it. I was a [redacted address] when it came out, you know, like in the movie. When she was going to a party in the valley, it was considered just like the raggedy of nowhere. What sad ass. Right. The one time she has to go to the valley, she gets robbed at gunpoint. I mean, I guess the answer to my question, though, is basically like it's proximity to Hollywood. Like that's what makes anything interesting is the proximity to Hollywood. Yeah. And also the world knows the valley because. So much of Hollywood, you use that as a backdrop, so you know all these places. Yeah, but it's like Hollywood distorted or degraded. There's something just appealing to me about it. Or magnified. Yeah, somehow distorted in some way. Did you like the movie? Did you like Licorice Pizza? Do you know I haven't seen it yet? Neither have I. Neither have I. I liked Inherent Vice, which nobody liked. I loved Inherent Vice. You had to rewatch it two, three times on Delta, but once it clicked, I loved it, loved it. And the look of it and the feel of it, I thought it was great. As a Valley expert, I'm interested to hear your take. I mean, it's not even from a movie perspective, but I think from like a storytelling perspective, I mean, but like how it looks is it does make the Valley look really appealing. You know what I mean? It has a very distinct look to it that I feel like, Obviously, most of that is gone now, of course, because it's a sweet green in a tokaya. Whoa, chill, bro, chill. And also, a lot of the valley, I mean, to bring up PTA again, on boogie nights, it's sort of like the valley is where you can afford to have a big backyard with a pool and your swinging parties. The downside is we have to go over the hill to NoHo or Studio City or Sherman Oaks. The upside is...

tons of parking, huge yard, big pool. You know, you can throw your money around a lot more than if you're in Hollywood and you can only afford a condo or something like that. And there's a weird kind of privacy there. I mean, there's just that kind of a blandness and anonymity that just kind of be great. That can be great if you're up to weird stuff. You're right. I'm not up to weird stuff, so I'm more of like a city cat, but I know what you mean. Well, I love being... I love being right next to the thing but without being in the thing so you can retreat if you want to. I'm only a podcaster, so it's an audio-based medium, so I'm not recognized in the streets as much. But I want to be a star. Like as you said about the late Eve, I want to be a star but anonymous still. Yes. That is right. A star, but that's the dream. I'll show you. Wait, I'm going to just twist this. There she is. You can see. It's like an outtake from that famous picture. Can you see? Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I keep air at the breasts all the time. Lily, come on. Well, I mean, who else? I mean, of all the people who have tried to be a star and remain anonymous, other than Banksy, who's really doing that, Lily? That is such a great question. I guess if I could answer it, they wouldn't be doing it, right? And also, you know, anonymous as a word, there's a spectrum of anonymity that one would consider. Well, okay, so I did the Tracy Large thing when I was at East Memorial. I was in L.A. a week and a half ago, and I met with a journalist named Mike Sager who had done, I think he did the piece that Boogie Nights was based on, on the Wonderland killings and John Holmes, and he wanted me to see this documentary that he'd done that was half released but half not from 20 years ago. Anyway, Paul Thomas Anderson is in it, and I realized I'd never seen him before. Really? Yeah. I feel like he's sneaky, don't you think? But he's pretty cool looking. He dresses well and is pretty good looking. No, but compared to Tarantino, PTA could walk around the Grove and not a single person would be like, oh shit, let me get a photo. I loved...

The master. The master, which is what the Grove really did love. I'm kidding, of course. But I feel like also I expect him to look like Philip Seymour Hoffman in Boogie Nights. That's what I mean. You know, he's married to former SNL star Maya Rudolph. I did know, but that could I didn't know that didn't tip me off in terms of his look. Good point. No, look, actresses, they like hotties. Let's be honest. That's kind of. I agree with you totally. PTA is no troll, but I wouldn't necessarily call him a hottie. No, I think a certain kind of... Yeah, he's good looking. And he dresses cool. That's the other thing. He looks cooler. He didn't look like Philip Seymour Hoffman in Boogie Nights. No, no, no. His ability to layer. Has done him well. Yeah. He's great with color as well. And I don't mean on the films. I mean in the dressing room. In the wardrobe. In wardrobe, excuse me. I should have used my proper Hollywood term. You recovered. You recovered nicely, Chris. So how does it feel to be a podcaster? It sucks, right? I love it. To me, it's like writing a book that talks, and I like it because it's the Wild West. People aren't controlling me every two seconds. None of those pesky airmail editors, right? Yeah, you know how it is. Graydon's not in there with his red pen, you know what I mean? Not racist enough, you know, stuff like that, he might say. Sorry, you were saying podcasting is fun? It's a problem for me. I'm teasing, I'm teasing. But, you know, it's like space. Like in magazines, you know, I come up through Vanity Fair. Space is limited, you know, and now with the podcast, you can go long. You're going to do your Rogan three-hour stuff soon? You're going to really take it there? No, I think because I've listened to the show, of course, because it's in my interest area. But, you know, I feel like you apologize a lot. That fucking laugh of mine. No, I think you have a beautiful voice. You have a beautiful speaking voice. It's very nice. But I think that, you know what? Our attitude here at How Long Gone is fuck the listeners. Yeah. Never apologize. And I think that's something you could adapt kind of from us. Listen, I totally agree with you. If we've learned nothing from Trump, apologizing gets you nowhere. I'm not even kidding. Exactly. It really doesn't. But it's like, you know, like when I did Tracy, I knew I was doing a podcast, so I knew when to shut up. But my style when I'm interviewing somebody for like a book or a magazine piece is to make it conversational, right? Yeah, of course. But I had to use this kind of old.

old, old recordings when I was not doing it for podcasts, like over talk and I laugh. I just, it's, I know you're right. I know it's worse to keep. No, I'm kidding. You're a hard time, but you, you listen to your own shit. No, I don't. To enlighten our listeners. Some of the interviews and conversations you had were taken from times when you were just like recording it on your phone with a phone call or something like that. And it wasn't like, it wasn't like in a studio. We're like, all right, here we go. Exactly. So. You weren't being yourself that you may have wanted to be for a big podcast. I was being my real self, which is obviously what I don't want to be. Which is terrible. It is. It was originally an oral history for Esquire, and I did 12 hours of interviews with Brett, and that was it. It was so many, but had I been doing it for the podcast, I would have shut up. We're having a hard time getting him for an hour, so wow. How'd you get 12? We're new friends with Brett. We went to dinner. We have an email correspondence. Where did you guys go? Where did you guys go for dinner? We went to a place called Horses, which is like on – it's new-ish. It's on Sunset. Right. We wanted to put – he, I'm sure, was aware of it, but we wanted to put him on to something new. You know what I mean? It was kind of the goal. I spoke with him this morning. I believe he requested, in so many words, the next time maybe a more quiet spot. He likes a quiet spot. Yeah. But I think that he's a very – I mean – It's a very interesting thing because obviously we are in the exact wheelhouse of his book. I grew up – I read those books in high school. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I've seen the movies, but the books were much more impactful for me because I think I read them when I was a little younger, of course. Yeah. I think what's so interesting about him particularly is that he's kind of stayed relevant the whole time. It's amazing. Even if you hate him, you know what I mean? It's still unavoidable. And I think overall, it's like he's kind of considered this beacon that people want to hear from.

Who's comparable that I don't think somebody. No, I agree. And I mean, I, I think his podcast is great. And even like the way that he does it, where he reads like a fucking monologue. I would say Keith McNally's comparable. Yeah. That's the only one. Maybe that's right. In terms of, yeah. In terms of the polarizing thoughts on him, but just like Keith's Instagram comments are just written. So. Now you're like, you know what? I got to keep checking. I got to keep checking. Everybody's so careful now. Everybody's so uptight. They're not, and it's just so great. I think during the Trump years and shit, it was pretty incredible to listen to. I'm like, Dan, this guy is saying what needs to be said to some extent. Lily, after talking to all these people who have done that well from Brett to Eve and everyone else in between, has that affected the way you? control yourself and the way you're saying things or like, how would you rate yourself on that, on that scale? You did say heavy person on the plane. So that's in 2022, that's enough to lose your job. So you are walking the line. No, but I mean, like, I just feel like if you don't have like courage, you just shouldn't be doing any, you know, line of work. But it's just like the uptightness. There's just like you have these conversations with people and you do not believe that they're talking to you like human to human. Do you know? There just seems like a basic insincerity to everything that they say. And it's so common now. It's like an epidemic. And so anyone who doesn't do that, I consider those people like it's almost like a libido thing. Like, um, it's almost like a sex energy. Like they, they speak directly and it's like exciting to me. Yeah. Yeah. Like some, somebody who opens up a conversation with something self deprecating or honest, anything that could be offensive to somebody and they don't care. Yeah. Suddenly your, your heart is a rock. Yes. That is exactly. Yes. And it's funny. Cause actually like with Brett and Trump, I actually just wish he would just admit he sometimes. tries for a pose of neutrality when he's talking about Trump. I'm like, just admit he turns you on. I don't mean Trump sexually his type, but I mean like he is just turned on by this guy's energy.

Say it. Just fuck him so we can all move on. All move on. Because that's what's exciting about Trump. I know it. It's not actually Trump's politics because Brett's not conservative, you know? No, that's an interesting point. I mean, the politics are awful, but the entertainment value is high. And I think it's something people couldn't... There's a lot of entertaining people who I do not want to have sex with. Yeah, no, no. I agree. That's a good... Yeah, that's a good one. And also... I don't know why I feel like the need to parse this. I don't actually think he's physically attracted to Trump. He has a totally different taste in men. Oh, no, of course not. No, no, no, but it's like that energy, you know, that energy he has. Like when you see like a male tiger take a female tiger in nature and it's like, this has to be done. i'm doing it this has to be done i mean things are just so everything is so divisive now that it's like you you do i mean you know you got to be careful to some extent no matter who you are i mean i'm i mean i'm sure i'm sure that anybody in his position or even in your position gets blowback you know you know what i mean i think that the but like what you said i do think there is some sort of if you're going to do anything that's public facing you have to be ready to to get shot at everybody has a fucking opinion now and you know twitter magnified it's just opinions we're awash in opinion. So it's like, you had to, you had to be tough, tougher about it. But it was like, it's funny. Cause now I'm thinking, cause like there was this kind of a pot, like I was making sure everybody knew that I voted for Biden and then I gave money to Bernie before I was talking about how into bread I was, you know, like, I'm like, I just want you to know, you know, I didn't, I didn't try Becca. If they don't, if you don't got, if you don't have a Biden sticker on the 500, you're going to, you're in trouble. You know, you might. You might get taxed higher somehow. You've got a target on your back. No, somehow it'll get worse for me. I mean, I can't even imagine what the private school scene is like. Oh, baby. Oh, no. And we are in it. That is right. Cut the tension with a knife. Well, we were mentioning Air Mail earlier, which is a publication that is kind of like a quintessential Chris Black publication, but I don't make enough money to read it myself.

Where do you as a writer stand on that position? Are you an airmail girl? But also as a writer, I know it doesn't bring a ton of money in. No, no, no. I think I'm an editor-at-large or writer-at-large for them. Well, I love Graydon. I love Graydon because Graydon was the first. Me too. Love him. I personally love him, and he was the first to publish me, and he took a chance on that Eve piece. He's great. And then the other one, it's Vanity Fair. I write for Vanity Fair still. you know, podcasting now takes up more of my time. And then I am not allowed to say, I know this sounds silly, but like making a doc, the Tracy thing is being, is being, it's been option is being made. Oh, congrats. Congrats. Thank you. Who's Hollywood Eve now, bitch. You know what I'm saying? That's what you're telling your haters. That's what you tell those haters. Yeah. So when you do, when you do a podcast, that's like this, like a narrative kind of podcast, not a conversational one like this. Do you have that in the back of your mind of like, I need to shape this so it gets picked up by Hulu or Netflix or I'm just trying to put out a pod? I don't think about it like that. I mean, I have to think about it as an end in and of itself or I'll get fucked up in my head. I won't be able to do it. But to me, I come from a book background, but it just seems like people read less and less. I've noticed that. Yeah, right? I mean, I read all the time, but people don't. But I feel like the podcast. If you're doing narrative, it kind of lets you do everything a book does. Plus the quotes talk. You know, I always feel like when Brett was describing having the quotes talk. And I remember when Brett was describing to me, you know, he got into this kind of nonfiction class as a freshman. It was a big deal. And this would be with Joe McGinnis, who was going to get less than zero published, help him get that published. And he said he got in there and it was only open to upperclassmen. And he goes, boom, you know, four of the girls went for me. And he's quiet. And he goes, I think I even had sex with one of them.

And then he's quiet again. And he goes, if you can call it sex. And then he's quiet again. And he's making sort of way there. And it's like funnier when you hear him say it. I mean, it's not only is it funny, it's just a hundred times better in every single way. Yes, that's what I think, you know. I'm lying flat on the page, you know? Oh, I'm glad that you're coming over to audio with me, Rogan, all the guys. It's finally, you're finally home. The death of the written word, says Lily. Well, it's just mutating forms. I mean, I just, it seems like. No, I think that, I think that this is going to be a more common, you know, I think that you're probably in the early stages of this happening, but I think it's going to be more common where it's like. it's it's in some ways like less work you know what i mean because you have you know and it's it's money wise and time wise it could be more money less time it depends on how you do it you know so it's like why would you also more sustainable for the environment you know i'm right i'm trying to save those trees lily of course there's no trees Frank's Glacial Coke or Gatorade Glacial Blue. I'm very concerned. For our polar ice caps. So can I pitch you my airmail ideas? I didn't realize you were an editor at large. I would love to hear some of these, Chris. I don't actually edit anything. But, Chris, you're in the middle of a thought. No, all I care about is airmail, Lily. Don't worry. That's, like, honestly, it's been a – I mentioned it in our New York Times story about the podcast. I heard from the staff over there that it was a blaze in the slack at Airmail. And I said, that makes me very happy because it's one of the only things I pay money for. It's like online. I love that. No, I think he does a great job. He's got like a real sensibility. He gave me my book party for the Eve Babbitts at the Waverly Inn. And he had just left Vanity Fair and he didn't have like a cadre of assistants, you know, the way he usually does. I know a few former assistants. I've heard the stories. Lawsuits pending. I was like, I'll try to do the invitation, or I got my husband, my poor, long-suffering husband, to put together an invitation, and I sent it to Graydon, and he goes, oh, no, no, no, no. This looks like an invitation to a book party in Poughkeepsie.

And he did something that looked great. See, I'm the Graydon Carter of this podcast. He's the problematic white man of this podcast. Aren't we all problematic white men? Not me. You're the worst. You just hide it well under that beautiful head of hair. But I do think that it's – is it rare for someone to contribute to both at this point? Or is there a lot of people that cross company lines? I actually think it is because he left Vanity Fair. I think it is unusual, but nobody's bugged me about it. They've both been great. No, I mean, as long as you're doing that, yeah. I think that, you know, if you're subscribing to Airmail, you can afford to also subscribe to Vanity Fair. I have a feeling. It's all, yeah, exactly. To see what's going on in the Hamptons and stuff like that, you know. Vanity Fair is $9 a year, and Airmail is $50, I think, or $20. You know, Airmail is, it's not cheap for those emails, bro, but those emails are designed nicely. And don't forget, Jason, your little – your chick, Kazzy David, you like her stuff. I haven't read any of her work because of the underlying paywall issue we talked about earlier. I don't like that Larry David wears an airmail hat on Curb Your Enthusiasm. I don't like that either. One future canceled old man supporting another future canceled old man. The whole thing stinks. No, I think that it's a platform we need, and that's why I'm glad they raised $17 million or whatever it was. That's what felt good. It felt so good to send that announcement into the group chat. Because that Odeon salmon ain't cheap. No, it's really not. I wanted to talk about podcasting, the podcast you do about the Bennington College. alums back in the 80s. For a lot of podcasts I'll listen to that are kind of this style, narrative, documentary style, whatever. You can sort of tell or it's a fine line of how much of this script was penned perfectly for the creator to

interject their flavor of writing or their anecdotes and colloquialisms and all those little things versus just kind of telling the story? How do you balance out the story itself, the cold hard facts versus your own personal thoughts on the matter? It's a very good question. I mean, it's just instinct. I mean, I've been doing this for a while. I mean, not the podcast part, but writing a book or writing a magazine article. To me, it's just not that different. I mean, you just don't want to be talking. too much, but I also like analysis. I mean, I like when someone kind of puts things together for me too, you know, when I'm reading or listening. So in my favorite, like my favorite writer, I was, I always feel like I've never been in my time, you know, like what do you call it? Moonwalking the future. And like in 1992, I turned 14, August 9th, 1992. And that's when I started reading Pauline Kael, you know, who wrote for the New Yorker, but she wasn't running for the New Yorker anymore. So you feel, you feel like you're, we call that. Born at the wrong time. Yeah, born at the wrong time. Or maybe I only like to look at things in hindsight. Like, it's weird to me now. Like, I was thinking about doing something on Courtney Love. And, you know, I was the exact right age to be into Nirvana. But I never paid attention. Except now, like, when I'm in a grocery store and I hear, like, come as you are. I'm, like, paralyzed. Like, I'm back in, you know, high school. But I seem to be only able to deal with it when I'm a few years out of it. I think we need you on the Courtney Love beat. I think that she. I think she's probably calmed down. I think so. And she was writing me. She was supposed to be in Bennington class of 86. Oh, I didn't know she graduated high school, so that's good to know. No, she was in reform school. I think she was in juvenile school. But somehow she was going to... You know, Bennington, you didn't have to have a high school diploma. You didn't have to have... Oh, I didn't know that. You just had to have a little do-re-mi. Not even. Not even, because they actually... It was the most expensive school in the country, but they had a ton of financial aid. It was a crazy school. So if I'm a high school dropout...

So I could just sign up right now and head over there? Or do you think it's changed? And he had something like a 90% acceptance rate. It was crazy. That's better than Orange County Community College where Jason did a couple algebra classes. I think that's because 10% of America could afford to go there. That's why they had a 90% acceptance rate. It's funny because it was the most expensive school in America, but it also had a lot of financial aid kids. But Chris. In order to qualify for financial aid, you have to show some exceptional talents, Chris. And you can't just, like, telling somebody on Slack to change slide 23 of a deck is not going to be enough to get you pushed through. It might be. If you were applying in 1982, it might have worked for you. Okay, so, I mean, if you were to do a Courtney Love saga like this, is there, I mean, is it just kind of like her general? life and how she ended up being here or is there a specific thread? I'm not going to blow my load. Could you lay it all out? Could you blow your proverbial load here? A lot of people listening to this podcast work in the audio space so they might want to pick it up. I'm not blowing my load. I'm not sure yet. I'm going to wait to blow it to her. But you're in touch with her and she's down. No, I don't know. She was in touch with me when she was talking about... We were in touch a lot this fall, and then she seemed like she lost patience with me. But I don't know why. I don't know how I'm offended. So you're saying you had the fish on the hook, and then you lost it? The fish jumped off. But I'm going to go chase after her again, because I think she's kind of great. She's a great gal. Slippery little salmon, though, huh? Yeah, I don't know. But, you know, like for Eve, I chased Eve for years and years. I mean, she wasn't seeing anybody. The patience, because I know a few people like you, you know what I mean, that do this for a living. And it's a very interesting approach to life where it's like,

This could be a five-year thing, or it could never work, but I'm going to just keep plugging away at it because there's no other way. There's no other way. It's like a long seduction. My husband's a doctor, so I can afford to kind of go on these journeys that may or may not be fruitful. We do have a nanny. It's fine. You know, it's fine. She's only here three days a week. Yeah, exactly. No, no, no. For sure, you need all these things. You definitely need some money. But even with Brett, it was like doing Bennington. I mean, we'd known each other for a long time. It takes a while. like and also for people that open up and this that and the other do you could but now like a Brett is that like that you consider him a friend at this point or is it okay okay but he's also a subject you know it's like there's always that detachment and he's It's a weird thing. I mean, it's a personal relationship, but he is my subject. Lily, we feel the same way about so many of our How Long Gone guests. I bet. Oftentimes they're our friends, but, you know, you're also a subject and a source of income. Yeah, Jason would like Charlie XCX to be a little more than a subject, but unfortunately that hasn't. Chris, come on. Unfortunately, we haven't really crossed that bridge yet. You know what I mean? So we'll get there one day. We'll get there one day. No, but it is a weird thing because it's a weird kind of like my attitude is like. I'm sure it's creepy being on the end of my fascination, right? Cause it's like kind of clinical and kind of detached and it's endless. And I'm always looking at you and I don't drink and you maybe drink and they know that too. And the weird thing, the weird dicey thing for them as well. Yeah. But I think people in that position, the reason they're going to participate, even if it takes a long time for you to, you know, beat them into submission, they want it. They like, they like being fucking famous. That's what I say all the time. It's like, how do you guys get? How do you guys get these guests? I'm like, because people want to fucking talk about themselves, guys. It's not rocket science. We all have giant egos, and we'd love for them to be stroked free of charge. In just the right way, yeah. Yeah, if I was a celeb, and I was a drinker, and all these things are going on, and you're coming at me, and you're just staring at me. I'm not drinking. I'm not doing drugs. This bitch has dubious intentions, but also... It could work.

I like it, and I don't want it to stop. Yeah, no, and it's weird, isn't it? It does feel like I'm going to violate you. Are you going to let me violate you? Lily. Lily asked for consent, and that's why she's a cool chick. I totally asked for consent, but it's like a weird thing. Well, when you get Brett on, you'll have to ask him what it's like being on the other end of that. Brett, Brett, Brett. Yes, you did all these less than zero Americans. I go, what I want to know, what was it like to be interviewed by Lily? Violated. Violated. You got to use some sensational language. You got to use some sensational language. You got to use a better verb. You got to use a better verb. That's a great, that's a great point. I mean, let's say Courtney's at the top of the list. How long is the list? How many targets do you have? That's it. She's it. I want her. You're locked the fuck in. Yeah. What's Tracy Lord's up to nowadays? I think just, you know, having a career in Hollywood. I mean, that's what she's up to. I mean, and that was like fun too, because that was like, that was quite the subculture, like that 80s video vixen valley world. I mean, it was, you know, seedy. I really loved it. Do you like to be an observer of the seedy world or do you ever participate in anything seedy yourself? Definitely not. Definitely not. Exactly. No. If you were to, what might that be? Go to a place where you could step on rodents or something? I always stayed away from any of that stuff. I worried I'd just go totally crazy. Yeah, no rodents. My old editor at Vanity Fair used to make fun of me like, you want cocaine? That would be appalling. I would stay away from certain things, but I just know I would want it so bad. I know there's certain things like having more energy, never sleeping. We never shutting off. Oh, heaven. Carolyn doesn't appeal to me at all. Well, you've got to try it. Trust me. It's pretty good. I'm not going to – don't rule it out. So you get sad when it's sleepy time? I have to take – I have to take NyQuil every night. I cannot just go to sleep. What? I've been doing it every night since I'm 18, so my liver is probably in a form. Yeah, well, I was going to say the inside of your body is a war zone, but now it's confirmed. So you put the kids to bed at 7.

You and Bae put on billions, and then you're staying up until 2 in the morning. Are you smoking NyQuil at this point? Yeah, you're hot-knifing NyQuil. I have this whole system. I have to have it before I have dinner because you eat it with food in your stomach. No, no, it won't work. Before dinner, you literally – okay, so you're saying you take – what time do you take it? Like 8. And what time do you go to bed? Man, that's a whole process. It's just a whole process. Step one, the 8 p.m. night before dinner. Lily, I'm glad that your life is just, it sounds, you know, when you see those two giant stones that grind together to make corn, to make flour out of corn. I know that's your brain at all times, but you have such a beautiful, cheery demeanor out into the world that I'm proud of you, but I'm also worried that you're just teetering on a fire. Fine, fine line. Fine line. I need to get to Glendale and I need to get there fast. That's the answer to all your problems. Hey, last question. When you're on vacation, even if you even take vacations, are you able to just sit on a chair and enjoy a beautiful view? No. No. I am like, what do you call it? Adedonia? No. So my parents... You're going to love this. My parents have a place in Nantucket. Oh, baby. I could tell. We did the math with the airmail. Go on. Yeah, we read our airmail. And when I go there, it's essentially like being here. So basically the kids can get into the sunshine and stuff, but I'm basically doing what I do here. You're a woman after my own heart. I tell you what. We're just getting along here. If they got Wi-Fi, I'll go there, and you guys can have your little fun in the ocean or whatever. You guys go ahead. I created my very own jail cell at the Nantucket house for me to enjoy. It's exactly right. My mom does monitor my NyQuil situation. That's the one flying the ointment. She doesn't like all the NyQuil. She goes into your dop kit under the lining of your suitcase. That's right. She does. She goes where I keep it.

And then she finds it and she starts crying and you hug her and you start crying. I'm sorry. Are people watching us? Yes, do the secret video. That is my summer. It's a never-ending struggle. Damn. All right. Well, Lily, thank you for joining us on How Long Gone. A pleasure. What a ride. People can listen to podcasts wherever they listen to podcasts and they can follow you on Facebook. Twitter? Yeah, I'm there. Instagram, too. Even though I don't post anything, but I am technically on there. They can watch me do nothing on these two different venues. That's a perfect interview, but no. Guys, check out the Bennington podcast if you're interested in anything cool. And Hollywood's Eve as well. In stores. And we will be looking out for the Courtney Love Exposé that we desperately need. All right. Thank you both. Thank you, Lily. Good to see you. We'll talk to you soon. Bye, Lily. Our pleasure. Bye.